[dumdumdumdum]

> This country should pay for every war crime they committed. There are no innocence in war. Silent complacency what brought it on. Russian IT giants did nothing to prevent the bloodshed. On the contrary, they actively propagate lies generated by their government.

Is this the propaganda you're talking about? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azov_Battalion

Or maybe the Russians have hacked the official Twitter account of the National Guard of Ukraine to post this vile racist shit https://twitter.com/ng_ukraine/status/1497924614865002497

[alangibson]

Give it up. Azov Battalion is explicitly neo-Nazi. It's also about about 1500 people. If you're going to engage in whataboutism over the wholesale invasion of a country, you've gonna have to do better than that.

That said, there's no justification for the Nazi crap.

[dumdumdumdum]

Come up with a new word. Not everything is 'whataboutism'.

But more to the point, if it's such a small force why is part of the National Guard of Ukraine. Disband it and send the members suspected of war crimes to stand trial at The Hague. I'm sure a nation looking to join the EU would have no problems doing that.

edit: Also something that's bothering me...what do you mean they are "explicitly neo-Nazi"? Is that somehow different to being a Nazi in your mind? Weird thing to point out...

[drran]

> what do you mean they are "explicitly neo-Nazi"?

Just looks at their crimes at Wikipedia:

> On 11 August, Azov battalion, backed by Ukrainian paratroopers, captured Marinka from pro-Russian rebels and entered the suburbs of Donetsk clashing with Donetsk People's Republic fighters.

They're killing Russians.

> In early September 2014, the Azov battalion was engaged in the Second Battle of Mariupol. Regarding the ceasefire agreed on 5 September, Biletskiy stated: "If it was a tactical move there is nothing wrong with it ... if it's an attempt to reach an agreement concerning Ukrainian soil with separatists then obviously it's a betrayal."

They don't believe Russians.

> As of late March 2015, despite a second ceasefire agreement (Minsk II), the Azov Battalion continued to prepare for war, with the group's leader seeing the ceasefire as "appeasement".

They don't believe Russians.

> In March 2015 Interior Minister Arsen Avakov announced that the Azov Regiment would be among the first units to be trained by United States Army troops in their Operation Fearless Guardian training mission.

They cooperate with US.

> According to Minsk Ceasefire Agreements, foreign fighters are not allowed to serve in Ukraine's military. Despite the Minsk Ceasefire Agreements, the regiment still has foreign fighters, including an ex-British army serviceman Chris Garrett and a 33-year-old former soldier of the Greek army and French Foreign Legion known by the nom-de-guerre of "The Greek".

They allow British and French to kill Russians.

And so on.

[usrusr]

Nobody believes Russians these days. For good reason. Have you forgotten all the lies served by Putin in the run-up to the invasion? Those weren't "clever ruses", those were lies as crude as those of a preschooler who has just discovered that you can say counterfactual things. They kill Russians: yes, that's what happens in a war. There has been a war for eight years.

Nothing you wrote is the tiniest evidence that they are nazis, completely besides the point.

Doesn't change the fact though that they certainly are self-identifying Nazi, in a sad perversion of "the enemy of the enemy is my friend"

Perhaps they are falling to the same misperception you seem to fall to, equating nazism with "against Russia". Tell that to a Frenchman, tell that to a Pole. Tell that to a Jew of any nationality. No, actual Nazism was not "against Russians". That wasn't part of their identity at all. Actual Nazis literally didn't give a shit about Russians in specific, they just wanted the land and the people currently on it happened to be Russians. But they would have tried exactly the same on any other ethnicity.

[drran]

> Doesn't change the fact though that they certainly are self-identifying Nazi, in a sad perversion of "the enemy of the enemy is my friend"

Are you member of Azov regiment or know them personally? If not, then list your arguments, please.

For Russians, anybody who is strong and against RF (or is ally of US) is Nazi, including Jews. It's like a gold medal for the enemy of RF.

[usrusr]

Sorry, I seem to have missed the well-deserved sarcasm in your statement, I guess we agree in everything but my claim about nazi self-identification.

What lead me to that claim: Just eight years of sometimes watching from afar (very far) and initially being quite confused by the occasional evidence (or what seemed like it?). Eventually I came to assume that they were effectively taught "from the same schoolbooks" (maybe not literally, but who knows) this Russian misappropriation of the term nazi and then simply applied logic: "if I'm against Russia then I guess I'm a nazi, heil whatever that guy was called!"

Quite unlikely (understatement!) that they actually are out to build a fourth reich and work on an Endlösung. I wrote "self-identify", not "are": I'm German and we like to think that we know a thing or two about actual nazism. But I wouldn't be surprised if occasionally some poor chap fell too deep into the ideological rabbit hole and inadvertently produced propaganda ammunition for Putinists. I suspect that the propaganda battle might be going much less bad for Putinists if the Ukraine was led by someone not quite as immune to being called a nazi (I guess bookies stopped taking bets for Time Person of the Year already?)

[dumdumdumdum]

I agree with the sentiment. I was just curious what the other commenter meant.

[alangibson]

By writing "explicitly neo-Nazi" I was saying "there is absolutely no doubt that these guys identify as Nazis".

[alangibson]

> Come up with a new word.

When a different word is appropriate, then I'll use it.

> Not everything is 'whataboutism'.

No, but your comment was.

> But more to the point, if it's such a small force why is part of the National Guard of Ukraine.

Because they were very effective fighters.

> Disband it

I hope they do.

> and send the members suspected of war crimes to stand trial at The Hague.

This is what should happen to anyone suspected of war crimes. No qualification is needed.

> what do you mean they are "explicitly neo-Nazi"? Is that somehow different to being a Nazi in your mind? Weird thing to point out...

No it's not. Neo-Nazi is the accepted term since the National Socialist part of Germany no longer exists. They're new Nazis. It's right there in the word.

And it's explicit because they use symbols the Nazis used and they call themselves Nazis.

[dumdumdumdum]

> No, but your comment was.

How? I don't remember saying the invasion is justified. I was addressing the claims of propaganda.