[onethought]

But it's not finished. Have you asked Cruise testers how many interventions they have had to do in equivalent drives as Tesla FSD Beta?

It's strange to me that Tesla who are building this in the open are criticised for being dishonest. Meanwhile ALL the competitors are closed door private development and some how we should trust them more? In an industry that is known for deceitful behaviour.

[AlotOfReading]

I'm not sure what you consider open about Tesla's approach. The fact that you can run updates without a license or any clue about what's changed or how it will perform in your area is exactly the issue! Tesla goes out of their way to avoid publishing actual metrics for safety, even useless ones like the annual DMV reports. Waymo, cruise etc aren't much better in public, but maybe it's a small comfort to know there are advocates internally (myself included) at all of these to publish that data?

Qualitatively, there's no comparison between them. Waymo and cruise are today more than capable of autonomy without a driver in certain circumstances. Tesla still has trouble staying in the lane and doesn't define an ODD or even claim L4 for fair comparison.

For background, I've been in waymo and cruise' vehicles, and ridden with AP. I've only seen FSD in video form.

[onethought]

Sorry you are misrepresenting things a lot.

Tesla publish autopilot data every year. Crashes per mile with AP, without AP, and with Safety assistance features, and show consistent improvement of AP. What do the competitors publish?

You are comparing AP (a traffic aware lane keeping cruise control system) to Waymo (a driverless taxi)? How about FSD Beta vs Waymo how has your experience been there?

By "in public" I mean I can go on YouTube and look up "FSD beta version 8", and "FSD version 10" and see hundreds of videos comparing both unplanned and repeated routes and see improvements and regressions. If I'm in the US I can even get the software myself and try it out (after hurdles)... how much more public could they do it?

[AlotOfReading]

I would consider a reasonable definition of 'open' to include publication of all relevant safety metrics through the appropriate channels. As the other reply mentions, one channel would be the DMV report in CA which Tesla famously eschews. They also don't publish FSD data, and their AP numbers are essentially useless for determining actual safety. They also don't have professional testers like cruise, waymo, etc do validating releases. Those other companies can do better here with publication, but they track safety data very closely internally, even down to specific scenarios and streets/areas. I haven't seen evidence that those sorts of numbers exist at Tesla or are consulted before releasing updates to the public, but feel free to correct me.

If your metric is simply public access and videos, waymo and cruise both have public demos available. jjricks has quite a few videos on the former. The latter is too new and small a program to have much content yet.

[onethought]

I'm sorry I don't consider a "curated CSV for California only" to be at all equivalent to 60,000 members across the US of the public who are free to post videos and setup failure cases, and report whatever they like.

> They also don't have professional testers like cruise, waymo, etc do validating releases.

Source? From my understanding they rollout releases to employees first (I assume a subset of those are professional testers). Then to beta testers. There have been a couple of releases that have been halted that lend credence to that.

> They also don't publish FSD data, and their AP numbers are essentially useless for determining actual safety

So is this because you can't see detailed data of their in-progress beta software? Could you show me the beta stats of Waymo/Cruise? Where are they published? Tesla aren't operating any robotaxis - so it's clearly not a finished piece of software is it?

On the AP front, why is the AP data useless? Which data do you need that is missing?

[adrr]

All the self driving car data is public in California.

https://www.dmv.ca.gov/portal/vehicle-industry-services/auto...

I would love to see disengagement reports for autopilot and FSD. I can't go more than 50 miles without having to takeover for autopilot. Like hitting the gas when it phantom brakes. You can't even use autopilot at night any more due phantom braking issues. I don't even use Navigate on autopilot because it literally tried to kill me on multiple occasions by trying to change lanes into a concrete barrier. Want to see funny. Use smart summon. I wish i could use smart summon and my phones video at the same time.

[waffle_maniac]

> Last year, Waymo logged 29,945 autonomous miles between reported disengagements.

https://twitter.com/TaylorOgan/status/1458169984987942913

> Cruise drove 41,719 miles in autonomous mode per disengagement.

> Waymo drove 2.36 million miles autonomously with one accident that was the vehicle's fault.

https://twitter.com/TaylorOgan/status/1495801454111727616

[onethought]

Q4 Tesla Safety Report[0]:

> In the 4th quarter, we recorded one crash for every 4.31 million miles driven in

> which drivers were using Autopilot technology (Autosteer and active safety

> features). For drivers who were not using Autopilot technology (no Autosteer and

> active safety features), we recorded one crash for every 1.59 million miles driven.

That's 1 quarter and the numbers dwarf the combined total of all the competition. It's also a safety report they put out every quarter rather than an adhoc tweet.

How many crashes have occurred on FSD Beta? 0. [1]

[0] https://www.tesla.com/en_AU/VehicleSafetyReport

[1] https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1482817514476347392

[panick21_]

And how many of those can be turned on on literally any street in the US?

[waffle_maniac]

A high rate of interventions is virtually GEO-fenced to only highways and not cities.