[lottin]

It's true. Crypto-currencies operate in a black market and therefore enable people to circumvent financial regulations. But circumventing regulations put up by incompetent governments doesn't address the root of the problem which is the fact that you have an incompetent government, and this has a whole range of consequences that go beyond mere currency issues, and that you won't be able to "circumvent" with or without crypto-currencies. So, in my opinion, you really need to address the problem and abandon the illusion that crypto-currencies will fix anything.

[jfroma]

it is interesting that you referred to “black market”. If you come from a working democracy where what is “just” is close to what is “fair”, then “black market” can make you think of drugs, weapons, or these sort of ilegal things. But I want to let you know that in some countries we have to go to the black market to buy another FIAT with less inflation because it is illegal to exchange our currency even to protect our savings.

So, yeah we can call it black market but I like the term “free market”.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argentine_currency_controls_...

[lottin]

They call it black market because a black market is not the same thing as a free market, otherwise they would just call it free market.

[jfroma]

Say the central bank of XYZ set a fixed rate of 100 $xyz per USD but it becomes illegal to buy USD and no any bank is willing to sell you USD. In a country like the United States you might hedge against inflation by buying some treasuries.. but in other places they just make it illegal to do anything else.

This automatically creates a “black market” of USD where the price is whatever the people are willing to pay, in the end the free market finds its way.

[lottin]

Again, a black market is not a free market. A free market exists within a legal framework in which rules are enforced. In contrast, a black market is a clandestine market, where illegal transactions take place. This means, for example, that participants in the black market don't have legal recourse in the event of fraud.

[jfroma]

“ In economics, a free market is a system in which the prices for goods and services are self-regulated by buyers and sellers negotiating in an open market without market coercions. In a free market, the laws and forces of supply and demand are free from any intervention by a government or other authority other than those interventions which are made to prohibit market coercions.”

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_market

[lottin]

And...?

[jfroma]

My point is exactly the opposite, incompetent gov are a byproduct of having too much power to control the money supply. Do you think Putin will still be in power if he couldn’t control the economy, ie if he had no money? In that case, what’s the point of the sanctions?

The cicle which I am most familiar with, goes by like this: gov destroys private enterprise and free economy thru regulations and expropriations, unemployment goes up and people gets dependent on hand outs, the remaining jobs bears all the costs. Unemployed sees gov are they gods, they will kept voting for them forever, even if they live in complete missery, it is all they have.

They become a “cyst”, it is very hard to go back.

[lottin]

Well, this theory is easily refuted by the fact that there are governments that have the same degree of power and control over the economy and don't wreck the economy. Some governments cause hyperinflation, but most don't, even though all are in control of the money supply. The fact that a government can mismanage the economy doesn't mean that it will mismanage the economy. In fact incompetent governments such as the Argentinian government are not that common. In many parts of the world the rule is for governments to be competent, or at least to be competent enough to not cause an economic catastrophe.

[jfroma]

Unfortunately data is not in your side. Most countries do not have economic freedom, moreover the less the economic freedom the worse the living conditions [1].

You might think that any country controls their money supply, that’s a fact. But can Biden for example, double the monetary base with his sole signature?

People in those countries could have great aspirations, to have a fair system, a working democracy, a better government and all that… but don’t forget they also need to live in the meanwhile, while fixing all those problems.

I’m not a user of crypto currently, but I see it as a way of shifting power. Similar to what the internet did for information.

[1]: https://www.heritage.org/index/ranking

[lottin]

All I'm saying is crypto is not going to make the institutions of your country work any better. Don't create the illusion that crypto solves a problem that it doesn't solve.