[matheusmoreira]

Holy shit I didn't know that. Those guards belong in jail themselves, what they did is torture. Prison exists to remove from society people who are incompatible with it, nothing more and even that must be constantly questioned and re-evaluated. Nobody deserves to have their dignity stripped away like that.

[kindatrue]

Once you fall into Prison Conditions Twitters, it's pretty eye opening.

Like the guy who was boiled to death with hot water for funsies:

https://www.miaminewtimes.com/news/florida-wont-charge-priso...

Or where rat poison is regularly fed:

https://abcnews.go.com/Health/22-rikers-island-prisoners-sic...

[rootusrootus]

> the guy who was boiled to death with hot water

Not only should the guards be up on charges, so should everyone else in the chain of command. 180F from a shower? That's insane, it shouldn't even be possible.

[Akronymus]

It also exists to make people compatible with society again. Or at least should be.

[Broken_Hippo]

Not in the US. The US prison system is for punishment first. A system that focuses on rehabilitation does not treat people this poorly, in general.

[t-writescode]

With what we do in the US, it’s not “punishment”, it’s sadism. Justice ends when excessive punishment begins and is deep into sadism when torture begins.

[wolfgangK]

I'm sure most people would want that, but I don't think that we know how to "make people" change. Much in the same way that we don't know how to have school "make children" more academic, we don't know how to make inmates less violent / impulsive / thrill-seeking (except by the inexorable passing of time). I'd be very happy to be corrected, tho.

OTOH, giving proper (i.e. often involuntary) treatment for violent mental illnesses would for sure improve the situation.

[agentdrtran]

this has never been the case in US prisons

[ROTMetro]

No, no it does not.

[oh_sigh]

You're assuming the accounting in the article is correct. Maybe it isn't:

> “Nobody can condone someone being thrown into a hot shower and killed,” Rundle said. “We read the same thing everyone else did, but it wasn't until we really investigated that we learned that is not what happened.”

https://www.miaminewtimes.com/news/katherine-fernandez-rundl...

[uoaei]

I don't see how you can read that and take the word of that attorney general as anything but self-serving CYA bullshit.

Even ignoring for the moment the deferment of local news outlets to government officials' press releases, instead of actual journalism, the story simply doesn't line up.

Plus when your only defense is "you haven't proven it beyond a reasonable doubt (because of all of the attempts to make it impossible to recover evidence)", even though that holds up in the court of law, it is not very convincing to any layperson who knows how crime happens.

Bluntly put, this article and subsequent defense are textbook bootlicking.

[oh_sigh]

Sorry, but I have a standard of not engaging with people who use the term "bootlicking" like this, because I've literally not once in my life seen someone use that term and also engage in an honest conversation.

[iudqnolq]

I feel the same for those who assume as true statements by cops in their own interest, with no evidence, when they deliberately chose not to have any evidence.

[uoaei]

You see one now. Open your eyes :)

Willing to have an honest conversation if you don't derail it with self-aggrandizing, pre-emptive character assassination based on incredibly tenuous associations.

Right wingers love to rail against cancel culture but have yet to fully recognize that they have employed the tactic forever with exactly the deflectionary style as above.

Ready to talk when you are but I won't hold my breath. If you decide to engage please bring something other than a parrot trained on police press releases.

[jopsen]

> Those guards belong in jail themselves...

The guards are just the product of a system/culture.

[Cthulhu_]

Don't make apologies for people who choose torture and who chose to participate in said system / culture. It's a job; if they had morals they would quit, whistleblow, or punish colleagues for this behaviour. I can't believe the pay would be THAT good. There's clearly no adequate chain of command or repercussions for this crime.

[ROTMetro]

Don't forget the thin blue line. The pressure to not snitch among them is huge, and comes from the top. During my time in I watched all of the decent COs become alcoholics/drug addicts and ultimately quit. We had one decent 'counselor' out of 5, and she was forced out for unauthorized use of government resources because she printed out a compassionate release request during COVID because inmates we illegally denied access to the law library, something she was quite clearly legally not only allowed to do but was supposed to do as part of her job (there is even a federal schedule of what they are to charge us per page if it is not a hardship case). If you complain, you will receive diesel therapy as the lightest of retribution from the Federal government. Your cell will definitely get tossed every day until your cellies tire of that and beat your ass.

[onemoresoop]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diesel_therapy

[ROTMetro]

It is way worse than that makes it out. Transfer times are designed to maximize prevention of sleep. You will be placed in very unsafe situations. You will go from small town jail to transfer station to detention center to small town jail via the longest route possible. You will be strip searched, a very invasive event, every time any movement is made. Your movement will happen to be right before/after meals are served, so you will "accidentally" be denied food. You will "accidentally" be placed with the opposite gang, the wrong custody classification, etc. so you will be in constant fear of your safety. You will be put in a single man cell with a big threaning guy, and they will kick him out of his bed and give in to you, and put him in a boat. Good luck not getting your getting you ass beat. You will be given no opportunity to use restrooms during movement. On conair you are shackled, hands in front, even when you use the bathroom. So no hygiene to clean up around back after going. Just a bit of the process.

[kqr]

It's not about making apologies. It's the opposite. You can blame the "bad apples" all you want and you will see no improvement whatsoever. You can instead choose to blame structural, systematic failures and get a lot of improvement out of little effort.

[mmcgaha]

I find it interesting when folks look at themselves as different than others. I don't have any first hand knowledge of what is going on with these guards, but I do know that I am not better than them. I am just as human and have all of the same frailties so I cannot say what I would do in their situation. At best I can say I hope I would do better.

[s1artibartfast]

Most people fail to understand the psychological impact of jobs continually interfacing with some of the worst people in society. I say this not as an apology or excuse, but simply as a statement of fact and a challenge that needs to be overcome. It happens to prison guards, Police, EMTs, and many others.

A portion of the people you work with want to kill you or each other given the chance. Over time this leads you to dehumanize and hate them. Over time, this view gets generalized to most of the people in your care.

[watwut]

It is more about power then about working with bad people.

Political prisoners tend to be treated as badly as others, if not worst.

[s1artibartfast]

I agree that power is a factor, I just don't think it is a self contained explanation.

[throwaway0a5e]

So we gonna apply this logic to all the other government workers working for toxic systems that hurt more than they help?

There are plenty of people who go into these jobs with the intention of being decent. The existing systems and culture suck that right out of them.

I knew an old bureaucrat. He got to make decisions that would or wouldn't financially screw families over. He said the worst part of his job was seeing all the younger employees in the cafeteria knowing they were being crushed by the system and turned into people like him and his other senior coworkers.

[malandrew]

> they would quit

Most prisons exist in places that are economically depressed with few if any other jobs. In some cases, the entire existence of a town revolves around the prison. Quitting is hardly an option when it’s the only real option for putting food on your table and a shelter over your head.

[xapata]

They could leave town. There's always another option.

[mgkimsal]

You need to be able to save up enough for a rent deposit (often 2-3 months of rent), afford moving costs, coordinate support for kids if you're moving away from existing support (other family/friend/etc), and deal with a lot of stress of moving out of town. If you have something better you're moving to, but that's often hard for people to coordinate. Spending all that to go get a similar pay job, perhaps in same industry, on the hope/chance that you'll be around more/better opportunities... it's a hard call for many folks to do, assuming they can even think that far ahead or strategically. Many folks are likely more consumed with day to day (especially if they've got kids).

[xapata]

> ... deal with a lot of stress ... have something better you're moving to ...

Thus the ethical argument. They'd rather keep doing what they're doing than pick the stress and uncertainty of moving.

[t-writescode]

I get the spirit of this; but if I can’t say that to people making poverty wages and being trapped, I can’t say they to prison guards, either.

Collectively and individually, the United States must “be better”, though.

[xapata]

> if I can’t say that to people making poverty wages and being trapped, I can’t say they to prison guards, either

Indeed. I think the same for everyone. Poverty is not an excuse for brutality.

[goodpoint]

The parent poster is not making an apology.

The unjust and cruel legal system and the behavior of people involved is all a product of society.

It's not just a couple of "bad apples".

And saying this does not give anybody a pass.

[throwaway0a5e]

> The parent poster is not making an apology.

Downvotes from creating a plausibly deniable strawman and then tearing it down are less than the upvotes from doing a good job tearing down the strawman. This kind of crap discourse is incentivized in a "if lawsuits are cheaper than recall we don't do a recall" sort of way.

HN (and other social media) is rife with this behavior/feedback loop.

[pc86]

As are most of the prisoners, but many of them belong there as well.