[causi]

Every time this is posted I wonder why it doesn't cover shadow muting, where you're blocked from commenting for a while but only a see a "posting too fast" error. I thought it was automated but it's been claimed to be a manual decision.

There are other behaviors I've observed but haven't confirmed. For example, highly controversial comments seem to sometimes be manually set to a point value of 1, even when they have dozens of replies making the real vote tally very unlikely to center on 1.

[javert]

I want to echo what a [dead] sibling comment is saying:

It's a problem that you get the "posting too fast" error only after you have typed a comment. Maybe a long and well thought-out one that took a lot of time and effort.

I've had cases where I've saved the comment in a .txt and gone back to post it later, but of course the discussion will have moved on.

I think the site should not even let you start typing if you are going to get the "posting too fast" error.

[gjsman-1000]

There are some not on the list that have issues filed to add them. Once example is that Hacker News has full shadow banning, and there are some choice words for dang's moderation there.

https://github.com/minimaxir/hacker-news-undocumented/issues...

As well as a discussion about "You're posting too fast."

https://github.com/minimaxir/hacker-news-undocumented/issues...

[TameAntelope]

Shadow muting is absolutely a manual process, dang has said as much directly in replies.

[pinephoneguy]

I think this list is pretty old and the post rate limiting is a pretty recent feature from late last year IIRC.

[causi]

Shadow muting isn't directly related to how fast you're posting, but how many of your comments are downvoted within a certain period of time. If your comments are well-received you can make much more of them in a given span than if most or all of them are downvoted.

[dang]

It doesn't have anything to do with downvotes.

[causi]

Directly? No, but they're the only proxy the user gets. I've certainly never noticed being rate-limited without also being downvoted.

[dang]

I don't know about proxy, but for sure they're correlated, because they have a common cause: breaking the site guidelines.

[hunterb123]

The shadow muting is the most annoying feature ever and leads to an echo chamber.

[dang]

No doubt it's the worst solution, except for all the others. We have few software tools for dampening the descent of this place into flamewar. If HN burns itself to a crisp, what good does that do anyone?

I do think it can be improved by making it more of a probation system that explains what's happening and how long the probation period is, presumably with some sort of exponential backoff so that over time probation converges to a permanent penalty. This is on the list to implement.

[hunterb123]

What triggers it?

If it's downvotes over a time period I don't see how that's a reliable method to determine whether someone should be on "probation".

If it's manual then I dispute the decision behind it as I'm constantly limited and I'm very cordial while albeit contrarian.

I'm not saying there should be no moderation, just that whatever is triggering the shadow muting is flawed.

If you want post limits, enable them for everyone.

[dang]

We rate limit accounts when they post too many low-quality comments too quickly and/or get involved in flamewars. If an account is doing a lot of things that damage HN for its intended purpose, obviously we have to do something.

> If you want post limits, enable them for everyone.

That would be inconsistent with optimizing for curiosity [1]. There are heaps of users from whom the more comments HN is lucky to receive, the better.

[1] https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&sor...

[tptacek]

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30461012

[TigeriusKirk]

You're not wrong. It ultimately causes more harm than good. But it's clear the mods are enamored with it, so don't expect it to go away.

[dang]

We're not enamored with rate limiting. By temperament I'd far rather not penalize anybody, plus it would be a gift from heaven to be free of the enormous number of demands it leads to. (We could ignore the demands, but that would be bad, so we don't.)

We do it because it's one of the few tools we have to try to prevent this place from destroying itself. Most of the other tools (such as replying to comments) take enormous much time and energy. It's necessary to have at least a few measures that can be done in software.

I wish that everyone complaining about this could realize the irony of the complaint: one of the reasons why the thing valuable enough to be worth complaining about exists in the first place is measures like rate limiting. But I know that's too much to ask.

[tediousdemise]

Yeah, the shadow muting/karma monitoring system leads to inorganic discussion since people are constantly walking on eggshells to protect their karma.

I think 4chan has done moderation better than anyone to date.

[ipaddr]

As someone forgets his password often and has to create another account. Half the fun is making it to 500.. once you hit 525 it's hard to slide back under if you act semi-responsibly.

[wanderer_]

> 4chan has done moderation

This statement may or may not be totally factually accurate.

Heh, look! I didn't break any of the eggshells!

[sparkie]

I've been rate limited since around 2018 to 5 posts per 3 hours. This was manually set by a mod.

[tediousdemise]

Same here. I think it actually improved my mental health because I can only post 5 comments a day.

I also feel like this limitation gives my comments a lot more weight, so it challenges me to really make a quality comment if I can help it.

Maybe it should be a default for everyone, although some keyboard warriors would probably get tilted.

[dang]

It's easy enough to get un-rate-limited. Just build up a track record of making substantive, curious contributions—that is, of using HN as intended—and then ask us at [e-mail]. It's not as if we're unresponsive (although the inbox does have poor worst-case latency).

Actually we often take rate limits off accounts without being asked. It's a matter of looking through the history and seeing if the account has stopped taking threads further into flamewar and/or is no longer making a habit of unsubstantive comments.

[SilasX]

Wait how do you know it was manually set? I’ve been throttled under a pattern like that for the past few months I think.

[ipaddr]

Make another account if it matters.

[ratg13]

Somewhere in that range is likely the limit for most people.

This is a good thing.

[dang]

No, rate limiting goes all the way back to the origin of HN, or at least before my time.