[simonh]

In 2009 Ukraine was under the control of Yanukovych, a Russian stooge installed through repression and rigged elections. He was Putin’s pawn and his posturing against NATO or Romania can hardly be used as criticism of the current Ukrainian government or the will of the Ukrainian people.

You’re implying that Ukraine didn’t try to make any friends before the 2014 Russian invasion of Crimea. In fact it was Ukraines improving relationship with the west (including Eastern Europe, so not really even ‘the west’ anymore, really just Non-Russia and China the axis of autocracy) that lead to the Russian annexation.

[oblio]

It doesn't matter.

Estonia, Lithuania, Latvia, etc. turned around in 1991.

Ukraine didn't. Its people didn't want it.

Downvote all you want, that's just fact.

[simonh]

Even if you are right about that, right now it doesn’t matter. I don’t think it’s possible to argue now that the Ukrainian people are pro Russian or anti EU and NATO. It’s entirely legitimate if they changed their mind about Russia given what’s happened since 2014. After all Ukraine is a big country and ‘they’ have a huge variety of opinions. The democratic will of the people now is what matters, and whether the rest of the world is prepared to defend their right to self determination.

[oblio]

I agree and even for selfish reasons I hope they win. I don't want Romania to border Russia again.

I hope they manage to push the Putinbots out of Ukraine, Donbass, Crimea.

[glogla]

The downvotes are because your opinions are despicable, not because it isn't literally true that Ukraine stance changed in the last decades.

[oblio]

I don't wish ill to the Ukrainian people.

I'm sorry this is happening. And they haven't done anything to deserve what's happening to them.

But their opinions only changed after aggression. Back in 2005 or so they were still pining after the Soviet Union.

But yes, truth hurts.

[amcoastal]

And what is your source saying the Ukrainian people were pining for the soviets in 2005? Rigged election results? Your opinions are crude and ghastly.

[oblio]

My source is simple.

Except for Ukraine (East Slavic, formerly part of the Soviet power structures), Belarus (also East Slavic, also formerly part of the Soviet power structures) and Moldova, (who doesn't know what they want to do...) everyone else turned West ASAP.

How come:

Estonia (ex-USSR)

Lithuania (ex-USSR)

Latvia (ex-USSR)

Poland

Hungary

Romania

Bulgaria

Czechia

Slovakia

didn't also have rigged election results? Well, most likely because their people wouldn't allow them. The popular consensus was that turning West was the only option and even populists and wannabe dictators didn't dare go against the people.

My opinions are crude and ghastly and I'm a jerk. But I'm also right.