[zfnmxt]

> You don’t need to min/max and obsess over progression and optimization to get good exercise.

You're right, but I'm not talking about exercise, I'm talking about training. You do need to "obsess" over progression if you intend to progress.

> I’m jacked just doing push-ups, pull-ups, and squats here and there.

You almost certainly are not. Having low bodyfat is not the same thing as being "jacked". Weight/height? How much can you squat?

> Where people fail is the daily consistency and making the lifestyle change of actually exercising at all regularly, not because they aren’t exercising optimally.

My argument is that these things are highly related. That is, lifting effectively makes lifting consistently much easier--if you're seeing continued, measurable progress (every time you lift your numbers go up--how exciting!) and actual physical changes and improvements to your quality of life, it really isn't so difficult to be consistent because the process itself is incredibly enjoyable and rewarding. Continued habits are not formed by discipline, they are formed by finding something you enjoy in the habit; at least some component of the habit itself must become compelling.

[Tade0]

> My argument is that these things are highly related. That is, lifting effectively makes lifting consistently much easier--if you're seeing continued, measurable progress (every time you lift your numbers go up--how exciting!)

I've found that I don't experience this at all. I went from being extremely weak to benching as much as I weighed, but once the college program that I participated in was done I didn't continue, because for me it was always a chore and remained so.

Nowadays I swim, because it's enjoyable for the sake of it. Also I have a small child now, so most of my daily exercise just sort of happens.

I have friends who enjoy this progress, pushing themselves to do more etc. - I can't relate to this at all.

Bottom line is that there's a chunk of the population that doesn't feel this at all and it's better that they exercise using VR than not at all.

[Broken_Hippo]

Continued habits are not formed by discipline, they are formed by finding something you enjoy in the habit; at least some component of the habit itself must become compelling.

You keep applying this to exercise, though, and obviously you have gotten enjoyment from it that others don't - but then you are putting down what other people manage to do. I don't care how much I could lift, nor do I think that I need more strength than what I need in everyday life - and realistically, that's just generally carrying groceries home from the grocery store and things like that (I'm in a walkable location and just walk 15 minutes each way).

[zfnmxt]

> but then you are putting down what other people manage to do.

This is a bizarre argument to me. If I argue that Rust is better than Pearl am I "putting down" Pearl programmers? There is no personal attack here--I firmly believe the methods I outlined in my post are superior. If you cannot find it in your being to find something enjoyable in that method that's unfortunate and if that means you have to do something else that's less optimal, so be it.

[waterproof]

> If I argue that Rust is better than Pearl am I "putting down" Pearl programmers?

Only if you come in telling the Perl programmers that they can’t possibly have written useful code. Which is what i hear when zmmmmm says

> I actually started bulking up in my upper arms for the first time in my life.

and you say

> No you didn’t

Or when Kiro says,

> Pistol Whip is great for building leg muscles

and you say

> bodyweight squats don't make you stronger.

To give you the benefit of the doubt, maybe you are using some very specific definition of the word strong. But it’s not the definition that the rest of us are using. Body weight exercise can absolutely help folks reach all kinds of fitness and life goals, which is all we’re trying to say here.

Plus as some folks have pointed out, there’s no reason you can’t wear some weights in VR either.

So yeah, it’s fine to extol the virtues of weight training, but you’re sounding to me like a Rust programmer saying Perl can’t possibly be used to save time or practice your problem solving.

[zfnmxt]

> Only if you come in telling the Perl programmers that they can’t possibly have written useful code. Which is what i hear when zmmmmm says

In hindsight, perhaps the analogy was poor. Perl and Rust can express exactly the same computations (and no more and no less) and are in some sense interchangeable which is not what I was trying to express.

I am indeed arguing that the utility of the strength training I outline exceeds that of VR exercise and that VR exercise is less useful in developing physical fitness.

> Body weight exercise can absolutely help folks reach all kinds of fitness and life goals, which is all we’re trying to say here

I agree with this and your quote

> bodyweight squats don't make you stronger.

is out of context, since I qualified it with people who already have a decent level of fitness. And that is indeed the case. You cannot increase the loading on the bodyweight squats and--assuming your bodyweight isn't drastically changing--that means you cannot change the intensity and hence you will not get appreciably stronger. Doing more reps just puts you in the realm of sarcoplasmic hypertrophy followed by cardiovascular adaptations.

Doing something is always better than nothing; there is no contention there and I agree. What I disagree with is the degree of benefits (especially in regards to strength) people are claiming things like VR exercise can provide and relative of importance of cardiovascular fitness vs. strength and how to best obtain fitness in each area.

I'm strongly opinionated, absolutely. And I absolutely think a lot of the approaches featured in this comment section are ineffective if the goal is to obtain physical fitness. If your goal is to just have fun and just do something you enjoy, then who cares--have fun! It's fine to not especially care about physical fitness and I have no personal interest in your physical fitness. But I believe that life is better physically fit and that the best path to fitness involves lifting weights in a manner which features progressive overload. A lot of people go to the gym with the intent to become strong and most of them fail--not all approaches are equally valid and a lot of them are ineffective.

[strken]

If your goal is to "obtain physical fitness," which as stated is a totally unquantified goal that could be defined in any way you want, then you are infinitely better off waving your arms around with a VR headset on than sitting on the couch.

The attitude of "well actually you're doing it all wrong and this is poorly optimised, watch me piss in your cornflakes" fails to take into account the merits of doing anything at all. Sure, they might plateau after a few months. That's not a problem. Anyone who plateaus is going to either A) decide they've made it far enough, which is their business, or B) find a way to push themselves, which will get them doing everything you're talking about.

What is your goal here? Get the excited people who like VR to stop exercising because they're not doing it efficiently enough for you? Why?

[pastage]

Yes you are puttning people down, even thick skinned Perl programmers, you do not show perspective. Most people will not care and just ignore you, the ones who argue with will at best have an interest in you explaining what you mean in a meaningfull way.

Responding with "well that's just your opinion man" is tiresome. You need to understand who you are having a discussing with. I know no one who cares about strength outside the training nerds, if that is your argument that strength is important and you need to prioritze it. Then you have to be really humble, and show how that can be. Do not say Perl sucks to make that point.