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by truted2 1584 days ago
I’ve seen these ideas pitched on Hacker News but is there any examples of HN users:

1. Starting a business that generally pays minimum wage and attempting to pay their employees more

2. Buying property and renting it out at below market rates

3. Supporting, training or helping people who are unemployed.

4. Going to work as teachers in underserved school districts.

5. Offering university level education for free

6. Buying USA made only

Hasn’t this traditionally been the American way? People going out and trying to experiment and build the things they wish to see in the world? I think everyone wants the things you mention but for some reason we are unable to execute on them and a convenient scape goat is that the government should solve it or that “the other party” is getting in the way. Where is the “You must be the change you seek” crowd these days?

Wouldn’t trying to make a small change in your community have more impact than all the comments posted in this thread?

4 comments

There are a few forces that govern behavior, from Lessig:

Money, markets - the cost of things regulates behavior, more money = more permissive behavior

Physics - the rules of the world regulate behavior, and the better our understanding, the more lax this regulation is

Norms - mutually agreed upon and generally, widely enforced "rules" that are not laws, but do impose rewards and consequences for behavior.

Laws - like norms, but more formal, and with real teeth beyond being shunned or praised.

Norms and laws act post fact. They do not actually prevent behavior, but can reward for it, or punish for it.

Physics and markets, money do inhibit behaviors. The rules of the world are the rules. Violations = failure. Inability to bear costs = failure.

A few entities trying to set new norms, and play against the generally running market, can do that to some degree, but money and markets are very strong forces compared to norms. And what Dan Price is doing with his $70K minimum wage at Gravity Payments is an excellent example. Price is establishing a norm. Weak sauce in the scheme of what regulates behavior.

Law needs to bolster those ideas and it's law and norms that can change how we value things and with those changes come real market dynamic changes, IMHO.

And this is why "be the change you seek" has limited power and cred. In the niche Price is in, it's possible, and he's doing that and arguably doing it at what others who do not value things like he does, would say he's doing it at a very significant opportunity cost.

And given the current state of affairs, they are RIGHT!!

This does not invalidate an effort like Price is making, nor the ideas, nor the potential for things to operate differently and to a much different overall effect for the population and it's elite members. Not to mention Price himself valuing things in ways that clearly make it all worth it for him to operate how he is. He talks about this all the time too.

But, scope and motivation are sharply limited. It's hard advocacy, and again as the opponents of Price would argue, very, very expensive advocacy.

I'm pretty sure there are examples of at least (1), (2), (4), (6).

But "go it at alone, and hope it catches on" is not how this would (or should) work.

It should be made as automatic to do, as paying your taxes, getting police to arrest a thief, or passing a sanity inspection to open a restaurant.

That's how society progresses as a society, when it makes what it wants the future to be either law or an custom/ethical thing that doing otherwise is frowned upon.

Not when things are merely left up to each individual's goodwill to set an example.

Doing it the formal way also e.g. makes it easier for an employeer to pay a good minimum wage AND still compete with other businesses of the same sector: since they all have to pay the same, it's a cost of doing business for everybody, not just for the "good heart" that opted to enforce it on its own (and is driven out of business by others undercutting him and paying worse).

>Hasn’t this traditionally been the American way? People going out and trying to experiment and build the things they wish to see in the world?

I don't know.

For example, from my understanding of Us history, it took a whole civil war, riots, and federal laws accompanied with police intervention to e.g. force the end of slavery and deseggregation. Some good white souls going out and doing it on their own didn't manage to get far...

>but is there any examples of HN users:

Probably plenty doing 1. I do this.

2 through 4 is basically asking to be exploited and undervalued, and very few mentally-well people could keep it up for more than a couple of years.

Plenty of us probably doing 5 in some way (I personally designed low-cost electronics lab gear, I'm sure plenty of others make cheap/free online courses and tutorials of a high standard), but it doesn't matter because employers are only looking for the credentials. I'd even go so far to state that many degrees aren't actually indicators of a particular valuable skillset, but indicators of class.

6 doesn't make sense in the broader scope. If everyone in every country did this, it would hurt the global economy more than it helps it.

> Wouldn’t trying to make a small change in your community have more impact than all the comments posted in this thread?

No.

Some problems are rightly solved at the government level and anything that serves to distract from that is propaganda.

To expand on this, there are problems solved well by competitive markets and problems that are not. If the above were in the first category people would have solved them and we wouldn’t be talking about them.
Nope.

Waiting for the government to step in when you could do something right now is just hypocritical.

What seems more effective in bringing about change to you: trying to teach others to not exploit the system by setting an example and hoping they emulate your behavior, or changing the system so that those behaviors are prohibited?

You can lay the blame on individuals all you want, but you're just going to be attacking symptoms, not the the problem.

I'm sick of this notion that having the government "step in" is a bad thing. There is no purpose to government if not to be used to act in public's benefit.

I’m not blaming individuals just calling out “talk is cheap”.

Sitting comfortably behind a computer claiming someone else should fix a problem is easy. Actually doing something (no matter how small) isn’t.