[ahh]

If only 1/5th of those prisoners are there for drug-crime (and I assume you believe as I do that much drug-related crime isn't worth the arrest?) then isn't that in fact evidence that our population commits substantially more _real_ crime than in other countries?

If so, then yes, let's lock them up. "Everyone steals" is not a good defense to stealing.

[tomlockwood]

> "Everyone steals" is not a good defense to stealing.

I'm not defending stealing, I'm saying for all crime in America, the deterrent of jail doesn't appear to be working. That button has already been pressed, hard.

[zthrowaway]

Right now we have DA’s across the country that are refusing to prosecute crime and letting people out. Criminals know this and are taking advantage.

[tomlockwood]

Is throwing people in prison, working?

[zthrowaway]

Obviously the opposite, isn't.

[josephcsible]

Even if prison were completely ineffective as a deterrent, that wouldn't be a reason to not use it, because criminals can't rob any more stores while they're imprisoned.

[tomlockwood]

Awesome, we should send the shoplifting rate to zero, by imprisoning, everyone!

[josephcsible]

I'm not saying to imprison everyone, obviously. I'm saying to imprison everyone who steals.

[tomlockwood]

And my argument is against turning the dial up on punishment as a result of people in prison not being able to steal. The logic you've put forward, at the very least, suggests that people who steal should therefore have life sentences, and that already sounds a little absurd. If we should imprison people more, to prevent crime, why not you and me? I assume we've both jaywalked.

[candiodari]

You could add that the price for having a single person in jail is more than people steal. A prisoner costs, in California, $106000 per year.

It would literally be cheaper (and obviously far more efficient for the economy) to offer anyone who steals $50 000 per year as long as they don't steal again. I mean you'd be paying criminals more than police officers, so I get that there would be revolution, but perhaps there are a LOT of cheap possibilities. If you offer someone $10k and what you ask in return keeps them out of prison for 3 months, that's a LARGE profit for the economy ...

The "prevent economic loss, by preventing stealing" argument is pretty strongly against prisons, doubly so in California.

[tomjen3]

We would have to compare that with how much crime there would be if there was no jails.

We might also look at things like how you can come back from jail and get a normal life, and looking into how we house people who are not suitable to get out again.

[foogazi]

> the deterrent of jail doesn't appear to be working.

Deterrent ? It does work, the people in jail are not stealing

[tomlockwood]

The USA has the most people in the world in the jail and this article is about the rising shoplifting problem. You are correct, those people that are currently in jail are not stealing.

[jimmygrapes]

And those currently stealing are not in jail.

[tomlockwood]

And if we jail every single citizen of the USA, there will be no stealing! Perfect.

[Fatnino]

We did it! It's solved!

[candiodari]

Can you explain how "it works" when jail inmates cost $106000 per year? You don't need jail to make someone steal less than $106k. You can just let them steal in supermarkets, they'll never get to that amount.

Because that's the whole point, isn't it? Prevent economic loss. So that means the solution needs to cost LESS then the problem. Jails cost more. This is exactly the opposite of working, even on purely economic terms.

[notthemessiah]

We have a high recidivism rate because are correctional institutions have no intention of correcting anything about our inmates. California profits off of private prison labor, and have no incentive to provide a path to recovery from a life of crime.

[ahh]

That's nice. Feel free to fix the prison system at any time; if the people who come out don't commit more crimes, I'll be happy.

In the meantime, imprison the people who do commit crimes, and if they do so again after they're out, imprison them again.

[gaganyaan]

Such a smooth-brained take.

There's a reason prisons are called "schools for crime", and it's because of silly lines like "if they do so again [...], imprison them again". Please actually think, and eventually realize that reducing recidivism rates is how you get your "people who come out don't commit more crimes".

[AnimalMuppet]

If you've got a way of reducing recidivism, we'd all love to see it. In the meantime, though, throwing insults at ahh doesn't actually refute his/her position.

[gaganyaan]

It's not a secret, it's common sense:

> Norway has one of the lowest recidivism rates in the world; in 2016, only 20% of inmates re-offended within 5 years. [...] Norway's prisons are renowned for being some of the best and most humane in the world.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incarceration_in_Norway

Treat people like people, it's that simple. Attitudes like ahh's arise from not expanding past using their lizard brain. They create more of the problem they purport to complain about. Straight contradiction.

[ahh]

You are welcome to advocate for pleasant, humane prisons. Run whatever antirecidivism campaigns you wish there. If they work, that's great.

In either case: send people who commit crime to those prisons. If they do it again, send them back.

[WalterGR]

Which states don’t profit off of prisons?

[notthemessiah]

Many industrialized countries have banned forced prison labor, but still allow some form of voluntary labor. The 13th Amendment enshrines it at the highest law of the land of the United States, and prisoners are often punished for refusing forced labor. Forced penal labor is also embraced by many other authoritarian countries like Communist China and Vietnam.

[otikik]

Some other countries don’t consider possession of a minor amount of drugs, clearly intended for personal use, “a drug crime”. Of course your numbers will be higher than others, if you count things differently.

Treat addiction like an illness, not a crime, and your numbers will fall in line with the rest of the countries, quickly. Moreso if you get rid of those for-profit prison system while you are at it.

[ahh]

I think you're misinterpreting GP: even though it is true that possession-like crimes are badly handled by the US, you can erase them entirely and the US _still_ has a larger prison population. Our population commits more real crimes than most first-world countries. Treating addiction like an illness seems nice, but will not stop that. We either must imprison them (which don't do _enough_) or convince them not to commit crimes (which actually prosecuting crimes _might_ help with, and very little else we've tried does.)

[etrautmann]

Someone is not born a "stealer" or "not a stealer". Conditions in society can be a cause.