[aspyct]

I'm amazed at how the openbsd community seems to like calling people idiots.

I've been using various unices for about 20 years now, ranging from Slackware Linux to OpenSolaris to FreeBSD to Kubuntu. I gave openbsd a try a few years back, and found it utterly complicated to setup and use.

And when you ask for help, you're treated like an idiot and the only reply you get is basically "rtfm". No joke, one of the guys said "Grey Unix beards are formed in suffering".

Granted, a lot of stuff is in the documentation. But also a lot of stuff isn't. Your edge case from laptop X isn't documented, and you're still considered an idiot if you can't solve it.

Even the title of this article reflects that mindset.

[daneel_w]

I think you're overreacting and exaggerating, both regarding OpenBSD being complicated to set up and about the community being toxic.

Yes, a certain few people on the official mailing lists can be a bit vocal and stingy, and that also goes for one or two asocial a**holes on the inofficial IRC channel (#openbsd/libera), but these people are few and by no means representative of the community. For the absolute majority of occasions, people seeking help on these two venues are met with generous and thorough reciprocation.

If you've used unices for 20 years, and in particular if you've installed the Slackware of old, I cannot imagine why you would feel OpenBSD is complicated to set up. It's technically the neatest, tidiest and least convoluted of the UNIX-likes out there, coupled with the best documentation available. Could it be that you approached it as if it were a "Linux-like"? I see this regularly with new users asking for help in #openbsd/libera, trying OpenBSD out with a bit of Linux in their backpack resulting in some common and entirely logical misconceptions.

[znpy]

> I think you're overreacting and exaggerating

I don't think so. I had similar experiences to what GP is reporting.

Edit: I must add, this was many years ago (at least ten)... I then let them on their own playing their games, kept studying gnu/linux and I regret nothing, frankly.

[aspyct]

> I cannot imagine why you would feel OpenBSD is complicated to set up.

Maybe the fact that there are so many manual steps to have a usable, "production grade", setup? Sure, you just have to follow documentation, but you're in for hours of work and learning tons of concepts before having anything secure if it's the first time. Also, if you make a single mistake along the way, all the help you'll get is a "Yeah, you did something wrong. RTFM".

That certainly isn't the definition of simple to me.

[mrweasel]

Just because I think it an awesome feature: Did you know that OpenBSD has an auto install feature, where the entire installer is scripted, no manual steps required? There is also the option for easily customizing the installer to configure the system so it's ready when it initially boot. See: https://man.openbsd.org/autoinstall, https://www.openbsd.org/faq/faq4.html#site and https://openbsd.amsterdam/setup.html for an example.

Even if you're just going through the manual install, there a no more steps than during something like a normal installation of Ubuntu. The disklabel tool isn't that user-friendly, but it's workable and help is available.

I think many believe the installation is complicated, simply because it's not graphical. Overall though, the installation process, the flexibility and tooling available for larger installation is impressive, and much better documented than anything I've seen on Linux.

[yjftsjthsd-h]

Yeah, OpenBSD's autoinstall is absolutely best in class (2nd place, IMO, goes to Red Hat's kickstart), and is the kind of thing where once you've used it you wonder why everybody didn't do it this way. Just... Have the installer take input in text prompts, and then let people record the question and the answer in a text file.

[throwaway2048]

if you want a full system format and are happy with the defaults, you can just keep pressing enter, and besides entering a username and 2 passwords, that is it as far as interacting with the installer goes.

[morganvachon]

You say your background includes Slackware Linux but you find OpenBSD to be difficult, nigh impossible, to install correctly? I think you're being disingenuous. I too have a long history with Slackware, going back to the late 90s, and I first tried OpenBSD back in 2008. Back then, it didn't do nearly as much "out of the box" to help a new user along as it does today in 7.0. Back then the user was expected to know the proper installer URL to set up for pkg_add to work, was expected to know how to manually install closed source firmware if needed, was expected to know how to partition their drive beforehand, was expected to know how to set up and turn on WiFi, and so on. All of that information was of course in the man pages, but the user was expected to carry a lot of the responsibility of bringing up the system for the first time.

Today, the OpenBSD installer literally does all of that for you. It sets the /etc/installurl to a sane default (the OpenBSD CDN URL), it does WiFi autoconfig even if your firmware is not available yet, it has an automatic partitioning feature, and it attempts a firmware update, all before you reboot the first time. Sure, there are a few after-boot setup steps left to do, but no more so than in Slackware 15.0. Both OSes give you a command line after install, both expect you to tweak the OS to your own needs from its base configuration, and OpenBSD even helps you set up your regular user account in the installer rather than leaving you to do it afterwards as Slackware does.

[daneel_w]

Hmm, no, I really have to disagree here. And you need to proceed with the same configuring of for example an httpd on the Linuxes as well after installing the software. These simply are not graphical "click'n'play" environments like IIS on Windows.

[messe]

What were you trying to do?

[messe]

> Granted, a lot of stuff is in the documentation. But also a lot of stuff isn't. Your edge case from laptop X isn't documented, and you're still considered an idiot if you can't solve it.

In my experience that's not what the OpenBSD mailing lists are like. Most people will go out of their way to help, but it's also expected that you do your own due diligence first. It's not a commercial project, and not every combination of hardware is going to work perfectly, or is going to be documented.

> Even the title of this article reflects that mindset.

I think you're reading too much into it, and really stretching it for that interpretation. You've gone in with a negative opinion of the OpenBSD community, which I think is an undeserved one, and are viewing it through that lens.

[nulbyte]

> I'm amazed at how the openbsd community seems to like calling people idiots.

"The complete idiot's guide" is a well-known series of books that cover a variety of topics for beginners; the title is a play on that. It's not an insult.

[aspyct]

Author could have chosen any title. He chose this one. I wonder why.

Nice write-up though, kudos to him.

[protomyth]

I would imagine that the author had the same feeling as a lot of us who have written and researched complex documentation that you feel like an idiot for all the missteps and detours taken to find the correct path. There is always a joy in the completion but damn you wish you had been smarter and more knowledgeable in the middle.

[daneel_w]

Certainly not to offend people. It also helps if one isn't actively looking for things to feel offended over.

[ospzfmbbzr]

Never liked that branding for idiots.

I've used OpenBSD since 2000. I own a PinebookPro. The tired and lame title makes me think the author is a joke (right or wrong) and I end up not wanting to bother giving this a try.

[rubyist5eva]

Maybe try not being so easily offended? It is just a figure of speech after all (and a rather common one).

[ospzfmbbzr]

It's about branding you Idiot. Read the comment.

[yjftsjthsd-h]

When I write documentation, I usually target it at an idiot. The idiot in question is me in six months when I've forgotten all this stuff. It's not an insult.

[rubyist5eva]

lmao

[prmoustache]

I see it as a direct reference to the "for dummies" books.

[PhantomGremlin]

the openbsd community seems to like calling people idiots

Even the title of this article reflects that mindset

There's cultural history about that very phrase. There was a series of books written with that exact title. They were intended to "provide a basic understanding of a complex and popular topics. The term 'idiot' is used as hyperbole". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Complete_Idiot%27s_Guides

Edit: I want to add that apparently the author put a lot of effort into writing a fairly comprehensive document. It will probably be quite helpful for someone attempting that install.

The document shouldn't be dismissed just because of the title.

[aspyct]

Indeed, and it seems to be a nice write-up, not dismissing that. Kudos to the author.

[Arnavion]

So when you were told to RTFM, did you find the answer in the manual? If you didn't, did you tell them, and how did they respond?

I don't have any experience with OpenBSD or its community, but I'm in several (Linux-related) communities that would also tell you to RTFM if you were to ask a question that we expect is answered in the FM. And we would be happy to be corrected if you came back and told us it wasn't there, or even better if you told us when you initially asked your question that you did read such-and-such parts of the FM and did not find the answer. You could even become the one to update the manual to add the missing info for the next soul who has the same problem.

Basically what I'm getting at is that lots of small communities don't have the resources or inclination to answer the same questions over and over again. Yes the response may not be polite, and if that puts you off of using the software then so be it, but some level of self-help and doing-your-homework is expected before asking questions.

[aspyct]

You didn't read my whole comment, did you?

I said "edge cases for laptop X". Of course I read the FM. Of course I did my homework before asking question.

But that's it, right there: just considering that, by default, newcomers are incapable of reading the documentation. You just did it.

[Arnavion]

>But that's it, right there: just considering that, by default, newcomers are incapable of reading the documentation. You just did it.

My comment did not make this assertion. I did read your whole comment, but I don't think you read mine.

[temprature]

Do you have examples of what in OpenBSD you found "utterly complicated to setup and use"? I've been using for several years now because of how devoid of complexity it is and because of how comprehensive the documentation is. Trying to even install other Unices nowadays frustrates me to no end because they're more complicated than "just keep pressing enter".

[implements]

The first time I installed OpenBSD I didn't know what to enter as "host name", nor that I needed to make a hosts file entry for whatever I chose.

Another example might be when startx stopped working for non-root users - a "change / why / what to do now" explanation would have been handy.

But OpenBSD isn't aimed at Unix newbies so it's entirely understandable why that level of hand-holding doesn't exist.

[mrweasel]

Non of those things are OpenBSD specific, though I’m not sure what the hosts file thing is about.

[aspyct]

Well, for one thing, setting up FDE was way harder that it should probably be for "the most secure os on the planet".

Also, I installed Kubuntu the other day, and I just kept pressing enter.

There was even a checkbox for FDE.

[peatmoss]

I think it's the difference between being simple, and hiding complexity behind towers of abstraction. In my experience OpenBSD goes to great lengths to rethink systems and purge intrinsic complexity. By contrast, Linux tends to merge complexity behind meta interfaces.

OpenBSD's approach appeals to me aesthetically, and I like the feeling that I could easily dive in and get to the bottom of the stack. There is no magic.

By contrast, I look at Ubuntu as a hot mess of code that I'll never understand, while simultaneously appreciating that I can click through the installer after a cocktail or two and be playing games on Steam in short order.

[kazen44]

the openBSD community is also very pragmatic in terms of backwards compatibility.

spending time make systems backwards compatible should be better spend making the path to using <newthing> as easy as possible, and a big help in that is keeping complexity down and not building towers of abstraction.

[messe]

Really? It's just a few commands away, all of which are completely transparent and documented in the FAQ:

https://www.openbsd.org/faq/faq14.html#softraidFDE

Granted it could probably be added to the installer, but that's hardly "Utterly complicated to setup".

[mrweasel]

Arguably it's a little weird that it's under "softraid", when you don't know that it's a feature provided by the softraid layer. It's easy enough to figure out after a bit of searching, but it's not the first place I'd look either.

[foxfluff]

That doesn't really match my experience. When I read the docs and don't find what I want, I've gotten useful help from the community. Either they help me or they point me to the piece of documentation that I somehow missed.

Granted I didn't actually ever need to ask for much help because OpenBSD was so utterly simple to set up.

[carapace]

From the POV of most of the folks working on OpenBSD most people are idiots. It's sounds like snark, but I'm trying to make a point here. There are umpteen OS for beginners (Ubuntu, TinyCore) or power users (Arch, most of the others) but OpenBSD is mostly for OpenBSD developers. They have been dealing with "idiots" who don't get that for years and years now, and part of their attitude is (IMO) just a heuristic for keeping out the riffraff.

[anthk]

OpenBSD and Slackware user there. OpenBSD it's far easier to setup than any Linux distro like Slackware or a netinstall Debian.

>And when you ask for help, you're treated like an idiot and the only reply you get is basically "rtfm"

You don't get a "man afterboot" advice for nothing.

[hedora]

I like OpenBSD because it doesn't treat the user like an idiot, and the documentation is excellent.

Also, the developers assume that they, themselves are idiots that can't maintain complex software, so they rip out as much unnecessary complexity as possible.

Sorry you had a bad experience with someone.

[prmoustache]

>I'm amazed at how the openbsd community seems to like calling people idiots.

Nobody called anyone an idiot. You just missed the direct and obvious reference to the "Complete idiot guides to" series of books which are themselves a reference of the "for dummies" books.

[Bancakes]

Professional programmers should be used to prodding their brains and RTFM. It's a question of ethics not to thought-dilute openBSD.