[Alex3917]

> Do you know if the immune response from the vaccine also causes that damage or not?

The vaccine appears to cause minor damage, but more likely from the spike protein than from the immune response. C.f. this article:

https://www.science.org/content/article/rare-cases-coronavir...

"She says she has preliminary evidence that vaccination can lead to microclots, although in most cases they go unnoticed and quickly disappear—an effect she and a colleague saw in their own blood and that of eight other healthy volunteers, which they sampled after their vaccinations."

The clotting issues would presumably come from the spike protein binding with your ACE2 receptors and downregulating them. Of course it's kind of moot, since empirically we know that getting the vaccine has a hugely positive expected value.

[raxxorrax]

I think this should be researched further. There are countries that are more or less unvaccinated and can serve as a control group. Without that you simply cannot answer the question.

[oneoff786]

You don’t need, and in fact lose validity, using entire countries as control groups

[raxxorrax]

Obviously, but you need people to be not vaccinated. But it still is the only way to sensibly differentiate effects of Covid and the vaccine itself if the spike protein causes damage.

I don't believe that we empirically know the positives either and it is the only way to reliably test. There is no alternative to this and it should have been done before any mandates came up in my opinion.

[Alex3917]

> I don't believe that we empirically know the positives either and it is the only way to reliably test.

There are already studies comparing the mortality risk of those who got the vaccines against those who didn't, among only people who didn't get COVID. If you're worried about the vaccines, just take them 8 weeks apart instead of 3, and/or take an ACE inhibitor first to up-regulate your ACE2 receptors.

[raxxorrax]

I have already takes 3 doses. These studies are insufficient and have to be conducted long term. It is about isolating the effects of the components. I don't think it is disputed that the vaccines did not have the expected safety profile. Further research will give us a clearer answers.

[foolinaround]

China data (if possible to obtained) could be used as a datapoint, as a country that is highly vaccinated but not with MRNA vaccines.

[rsfern]

Isn’t the clotting thing specific to the AZ? I thought that was attributed to the adenovirus vector and not the SARS-CoV-2 spike