[ailef]

That page is what I would definitely not characterize as a proper source. From the page itself:

> Any attempt to estimate a total number of killings under communist regimes depends greatly on definitions, and the idea to group together different countries such as Afghanistan and Hungary has no adequate explanation.

There doesn't seem to be a real consensus on what actually should be counted or not. But I'm ok with taking the widest, most encompassing definition. One should wonder then, what number would we get if we apply the same definition to pro-Western/capitalist countries?

[YEwSdObPQT]

> That page is what I would definitely not characterize as a proper source

Obfuscate the discussion with numbers when it entirely misses the point I was making. So I will spell it out for you.

It is totally okay to bring into question the numbers and whether it happened when it comes to the crimes of the communist regimes. However if you deny the holocaust that is too much and must be criminalised. That is a double standard.

Either let everyone deny any event occurred or don't let them deny any genocide. If you are going to denounce Nazism and essentially make it illegal, you must also do the same for Communist, Jihadism or any other extremist group. But it is only done for Nazis because they must justify curtailing your freedoms by pointing to the very small amount of people that still think the Failed Austrian Artist with a Charlie Chaplin moustache might have had some good ideas.

> There doesn't seem to be a real consensus on what actually should be counted or not. But I'm ok with taking the widest, most encompassing definition.

Whether or not the Communists regimes killed more or not doesn't really matter. The problem is that there is a double standard. That wearing a Nazi Swastika is somehow beyond the pale, but waving a communist flag with Che T-Shirt is somehow acceptable. Both the Nazi and Communist regimes committed atrocities.

BTW Far-right apologists do the same. Try to obfuscate the issue by talking about numbers and whether the numbers were true. I've been to the Tuol Sleng Genocide Museum in Cambodia. I know what I saw there.

> One should wonder then, what number would we get if we apply the same definition to pro-Western/capitalist countries?

I am essentially a Anarchist (I don't like putting labels on myself, but for most intents and purposes that is what I am). So I am completely on board with criticising the state's wars done in the name of "spreading democracy and freedom". I was against the Iraq War, The War in Afghanistan, Drone Strikes. People bring this up as some sort of gotcha. I don't support any War other than one of purely defence.

[hutzlibu]

"the very small amount of people that still think the Failed Austrian Artist with a Charlie Chaplin moustache might have had some good ideas."

Small amount?

He is still admired worldwide. Just not so much openly in most places. Just look, how many Hitler documentaries are still made and that you can still buy Mein Kampf worldwide.

In either case, communist organisations do regulary face prosecution in the west, as well as islamist groups.

The only "unfair" thing would maybe be, that way more symbols of nacism are forbidden and so more possibilities to prosecute - but they just have substitutes and nothing really changes.

But - the difference between communist and nazi ideology is, that communist want a better world for everyone. Nazis only for a certain race, while enslaving the "lower" races. This might be a reason, why che is more accepted (despite being a sociopath on closer look) and hitler is not.

And the holocaust is still very unique in its significance. So they quite earned their special treatment. And they are still very much alive and organizing in the underground. This is why the rules will not soften in the foreseeable future. And I do not really feel like fighting for nazi freedom, despite being more tolerant in theory. But just for the reason alone, that those hypocrites can no longer present themself as victims, I would let them legally have all their symbols, flags and conspiracy theories.

[YEwSdObPQT]

> Small amount?

Yes. There is a small amount of these people in the Western world. I would estimate it as less than 1% of the total population.

The state and the media want you to believe they are just waiting to crawl out of every crevice and take over the world again to justify taking your rights away.

> He is still admired worldwide. Just not so much openly in most places. Just look, how many Hitler documentaries are still made and that you can still buy Mein Kampf worldwide.

In the Islamic world maybe. Not in the Western world. You are delusion if you think that lots of people genuinely admire Hitler in the Western world.

Reading a book doesn't mean you support it. I have books from all sorts of people that were / are awful and it doesn't mean I believe it. I have a copy of Mein Kampf, I am not a nazi though (though I am sure some people would like to smear me as one).

Lots of people watch Hitler and WWII documentaries because quite frankly they are easy to make (lot of archive footage) and it was the first mechanised large war that encompassed the globe and Historically it had many iconic people involved in position of political and military power.

> In either case, communist organisations do regulary face prosecution in the west, as well as islamist groups.

Good. They are both evil. Many people have died because of both groups.

> But - the difference between communist and nazi ideology is, that communist want a better world for everyone. Nazis only for a certain race, while enslaving the "lower" races. This might be a reason, why che is more accepted (despite being a sociopath on closer look) and hitler is not.

This myth needs to die. Communists do not want a better world for everyone. Many of the communists that aren't students are the ones wishing they were the ones in power. All communism is, is theft justified by the thief.

Communism violates private property rights (which almost all other rights are obtained) and once they are eroded individual rights are next. They have no good intentions. In fact I think the Nazis were better, they are at least honest about their intentions.

> And I do not really feel like fighting for nazi freedom, despite being more tolerant in theory.

I would not expect you to. I would expect someone to fight for theirs. By protecting everyone's individual rights, you protect your own and other marginalised groups and unfortunately that includes odious people like Neo-nazis.

[hutzlibu]

"The state and the media want you to believe they are just waiting to crawl out of every crevice and take over the world again to justify taking your rights away"

Yeah well, or the opposite.

We had an underground nazi terror network in germany doing terrorist attacks.

Only discovered by accident, because a bank robbery went wrong. The police was assuming it was all gang related crime and the secret service knew nothing, even though they were indeed quite close, or rather, well connected to the terrorist. And now we have networks in special forces and police who plan for day x. National revolution.

And they do try to creep in everywhere, usually in disguise. I had quite some encounters with them, from early on in schools to later in alternative, ecological and spiritual groups. Where they target suitable, meaning vulnerable recruits.

Now with corona and many antivaxx people getting desperate to seek shelter from the "poison system"? They have vast growth.

[YEwSdObPQT]

> Yeah well, or the opposite.

No it isn't the opposite. Again the last 2 years has shown me by how government and media have responded to recent events proves it. I have seen rioters burn down a cities in the US and call them "peaceful protests" while other normal people just simply protesting in Europe and Australia because they literally can't go to work or run the businesses be labelled far right.

So save me this gas-lighting that you and many others do where you literally telling me things didn't happen and I know they've happened.

> Only discovered by accident, because a bank robbery went wrong. The police was assuming it was all gang related crime and the secret service knew nothing, even though they were indeed quite close, or rather, well connected to the terrorist. And now we have networks in special forces and police who plan for day x. National revolution.

Sounds hard to believe.

Even if it was true, the number of people involved would be tiny percentage of the population (as I said earlier) and you are literally falling for the same old crap that the white nationalist uprising is happening any minute.

> And they do try to creep in everywhere, usually in disguise. I had quite some encounters with them, from early on in schools to later in alternative, ecological and spiritual groups. Where they target suitable, meaning vulnerable recruits.

No they don't. My step brother is a Neo-nazi and people like this and they tell you exactly what their beliefs are. They do not hide it.

> Now with corona and many antivaxx people getting desperate to seek shelter from the "poison system"? They have vast growth.

Some people are anti-covid vaccine (due to them being novel), covid vaccine hesitant (like I was so I waited) and are anti-vaccine mandate. This is not the same as anti-vax.

Almost nobody is going to join the Neo-nazis from any of the groups above. The media wants to conflate all the groups as far right when they aren't. Most are normal people that disagree with the consensus. You are doing the same and just repeating the same old lies that is told on media.

It is pretty obvious you have fallen for a lot of the propaganda that is in the news after talking to you and many others. I used to trust the news, media and government as well. Until they were caught constantly lying about things.

[hutzlibu]

"It is pretty obvious you have fallen for a lot of the propaganda "

Sure thing, thats what I've heard from right or left winged "anarchists" and other self declared woke or enlightened people countless times.

" I used to trust the news, media and government as well"

Reality is, I stopped doing this long ago, when I was 15 or something.

So I think I now can evaluate quite neutral, the validity of nazi sources, government sources, anti vaxx sources, chemtrail etc. and I do not have to bend reality around my ideology. I can take a truth, no matter where it comes from. But there is not much truth coming from the nazis for example. Truth was never a concern for them. Power is. (I read Mein Kampf, too). And lies feed their twisted power. From the beginning - they even made a propaganda ministery.

In either case, my personal observation, from many direct encounters with them, is:

There are still lots of nazis around today. Only the very simple ones do not hide themself. Most of them wear suits today.

But no, they are not strong enough, to take power. If they could, they would. They do it everywhere local they can. Terrorizing anyone not white.

But I never said, I support special government restrictions to those poor oppressed racial freedom fighter. (normal criminal code is sufficient). The fact that you assume I do, because I explained why those special restrictions have popular support, shows how much you think in fixed patterns.