[kmeisthax]

Can't read German, but I'm going to assume the channels in question are full of neo-Nazis. If that's the case then this isn't anything particularly new; Germany's constitution explicitly denies freedom of speech to Nazis.

I don't find this particularly objectionable on it's own; Nazis and neo-Nazis never believed in free speech to begin with. However, we should still remain wary of false positives or scope creep beyond this narrow carve-out.

[mtmail]

> Can't read German, but I'm going to assume

Reading the article leads to a better discussion. Link to translated article https://netzpolitik-org.translate.goog/2022/nach-gespraechen...

[kmeisthax]

My experience with machine translation is that it's unreliable at best and wholly unfit for purpose at worst. In this case, I'd rather known ignorance over being misled.

[sascha_sl]

They're certainly very adjacent, but the general trend is more into conspiracy theorists / new world order and anti-corona measures with a tendency to call for violence.

[hutzlibu]

"Germany's constitution explicitly denies freedom of speech to Nazis."

Not exactly like this. You are allowed to speak your mind as a Nazi. You may say you are a Nazi and also say why you think they are superior etc. blablabla.

You are not allowed, to wear certain symbols of NS times (swastika and co) and you are not allowed to deny that the holocaust happened and to glorify certain SS organisations.

[sascha_sl]

While it is not the constitution, but the criminal code, being a nazi without at least a basic veil of decency will get you jailed for publicly voicing your beliefs:

    Whosoever, in a manner capable of disturbing the public peace:

    incites hatred against a national, racial, religious group or a group defined by their ethnic origins, against segments of the population or individuals because of their belonging to one of the aforementioned groups or segments of the population or calls for violent or arbitrary measures against them; or

    assaults the human dignity of others by insulting, maliciously maligning an aforementioned group, segments of the population or individuals because of their belonging to one of the aforementioned groups or segments of the population, or defaming segments of the population,

    shall be liable to imprisonment from three months to five years.

(§ 130 StGB Volksverhetzung)

What you were referencing is §86 and §86a StGB.

[hutzlibu]

Well, in theory you can also go to jail, for saying you think the catholic church is a organisation of criminal pedophiles. (blasphemie paragraph)

Does not happen in reality, though.

There are Nazis in jail though for denying the holocaust (Horst Mahler) and for trying to incite violence (Landser). Not for expressing their nazi ideology, but for direct calls for murder.

[sascha_sl]

Plenty of NDP functionaries (and some AfD too) were fined or are on parole for Volksverhetzung. Just because it doesn't usually escalate into jail time doesn't mean the law is not being applied.[1]

[1]: https://dejure.org/dienste/lex/StGB/130/1.html

[YEwSdObPQT]

So you aren't allowed to speak freely and they are controlling what people can and can't wear?

So they do deny freedom of speech and freedom of expression to people that the government doesn't like (in this case Neo-Nazis).

The amount of mental gymnastics people do is astounding.

[hutzlibu]

"So they do deny freedom of speech and freedom of expression to people that the government doesn't like "

Of course they do, every state on earth limits freedom of speech. In germany regarding certain topics even more so. But nazis are still allowed to express their ideology. This is a difference to a time, when also this was forbidden. (for example in the NS area)

[kmeisthax]

If removing threats of violence is considered censorship, then the word "censorship" has no meaning. Think about it: how does censorship really occur? Do governments cast a magic spell that makes it so that the words can't come out of your mouth? No. They threaten violence[0], in order to punish you for saying the thing you don't want to say, which creates a chilling effect. This is no different than what Nazis do - they threaten violence against people whose speech they don't like.

At that point, the choice is not between "freedom of speech" and "censorship". It's "censor the Nazi" or "let the Nazi censor everyone else". You must choose the option that preserves the most freedom of speech.

And this goes for every other entity that threatens violence - not just Nazis. I'm only mentioning them because we're talking about the German legal conception of freedom of expression. Nobody says "I'm going to kill you" for the sake of it; they say it to terrorize other people into doing things they want, including things like not saying words they don't want spoken. This also goes for threatening violence against groups of people rather than speakers of certain words, and political speech that proposes using the state as a means to do the above. All of that is censorious, and as far as I'm concerned a definition of freedom of speech that does not include freedom from threats of violence is incomplete.

That being said, censorship by terrorism should be construed narrowly. One might have thoughts of, say, radical Islamic terrorism while reading the above paragraph. This would be an example of censorious speech. However, ISIS, Boko Haram, and/or the Taliban making use of censorious threats does not mean that the entire religion of Islam is guilty of the same thing. Same thing for Nazis or neo-Nazis - they don't make Christians or neo-pagans valid targets of censorship just because they happen to belong to the same religion.

[0] Or at least, some long chain of escalating legalistic rituals that we call a lawsuit, which is backed by the government's monopoly over violence within an area. This is a distinction without a difference.

[YEwSdObPQT]

> If removing threats of violence is considered censorship, then the word "censorship" has no meaning. Think about it: how does censorship really occur? Do governments cast a magic spell that makes it so that the words can't come out of your mouth? No. They threaten violence[0], in order to punish you for saying the thing you don't want to say, which creates a chilling effect. This is no different than what Nazis do - they threaten violence against people whose speech they don't like.

Denying the holocaust didn't happen isn't a threat of violence. It is saying that something didn't happen.

Also a threat of violence has to be credible.

> At that point, the choice is not between "freedom of speech" and "censorship". It's "censor the Nazi" or "let the Nazi censor everyone else". You must choose the option that preserves the most freedom of speech.

This is a false dichotomy.

> And this goes for every other entity that threatens violence - not just Nazis. I'm only mentioning them because we're talking about the German legal conception of freedom of expression. Nobody says "I'm going to kill you" for the sake of it; they say it to terrorize other people into doing things they want, including things like not saying words they don't want spoken. This also goes for threatening violence against groups of people rather than speakers of certain words, and political speech that proposes using the state as a means to do the above. All of that is censorious, and as far as I'm concerned a definition of freedom of speech that does not include freedom from threats of violence is incomplete.

Your conception of freedom of speech isn't freedom of speech. It is "freedom to hear things that aren't too unpleasant".

As for the the chilling effect might work with some people. It won't work with others. With me it wouldn't work. I would tell them to "fuck around and find out". I won't live in fear.

[gtsop]

Although your statement is alright, the big thing here isn't nazis' free speech in particular, but censorship on a platform that is being sold as a privacy saver.

Local laws may change from place to place. What is maybe reasonable in place A (and we may both agree with) may not be reasonable in place B

[martin_a]

It's an unholy mixture. It started with critique against the restrictions due to Covid 19, but it escalated from that point on. Comparison of unvaccinated people and jews under the Nazi regime are what's happening in some of those Telegram channels these days and that's against german law, yes.

[mschuster91]

Many of the Telegram channels of the covid-deniers actually escalated to open calls for murder, not just antisemitic comparisons (which are bad enough on themselves).