[danShumway]

This argument comes up a lot, and while I ultimately don't agree with it, I still am sympathetic to it and I do think it has a grain of truth embedded in it.

Here's a question though: isn't that also a reason for Apple to hobble web browsers? Everything you're saying about app security and developers refusing to follow Apples rules also applies to progressive web apps unless Apple commits to making its browser meaningfully less powerful than native apps, and (importantly) meaningfully less powerful in ways that Microsoft/Amazon/Facebook actually care about.

That means you've kind of got to commit to the idea that web apps on iOS never get notification support, they never get intent support with other apps or the ability to handle opening resources, they never get support for good background audio or timers/alarms, they never get reliable clientside storage for offline usage without accounts. It's not just that you can't do low-level complicated sensor/GPU stuff, Apple has to hobble browser capabilities that make it good for reading news or setting timers.

Is that a world you're comfortable with? I know a reasonable number of people on HN are comfortable with that idea, just because they don't want the web to have application capabilities in the first place. But a lot of other people bring up the web as an alternative to the app store (Apple itself is fond of making that argument), and it makes me think -- if the web ever is a viable alternative for good apps on iOS, then the situation you're worried about already exists, doesn't it? Instead of the NYT distributing a native app that you subscribe to with Apple's system that gives you easy cancellation, instead you would get a PWA reader app that you pin to your homescreen and you subscribe through their web interface. The only way that doesn't work is if the experience of reading the NYT and getting notifications about new articles and saving your account details is a worse experience inside of a browser.

If what you're describing about companies removing user choice or forcing users to accept worse alternatives -- if what you're describing is an inevitable result of any serious, alternative user-facing app platform on iOS, then the only way Apple avoids that situation with the web is if it consciously commits to Safari being perpetually behind on standards and perpetually systemically and deliberately made worse as an app platform. That could either be through making sure the browser always lacks features or it could be achieved through other UX designs like blocking PWAs from showing up in app lists, making them unreliable to install, blocking their installation entirely in some cases, etc...

Is that an outcome that Apple users are comfortable with?

[scarface74]

Every single web page without fail that’s wants to send push notifications wants to spam me.

[danShumway]

Are apps different?

I have push notifications disabled on my phone for (almost) literally every single app except my email client and Element/Signal.

I don't get why the web is special, push notifications in native apps are just as abused as they are on the web. Even built-in apps abuse them. We could just as easily make an argument that native apps should have them disabled as well.

But regardless, this kind of goes back to my point. Okay, let's say that every web app abuses push notifications. What we're saying is that we're not going to have progressive web apps. Any app that needs push notifications is going to be a native app, even if it's something as simple as a messaging client or a reader app.

There was a really strong movement around phone platforms a while back where people were asking, "why is this an app in the first place, why isn't this a website?" Well, you can't have that if you don't trust alternative app stores to some degree, because the answer is that any version of the web that is powerful enough to provide meaningful substitutes for native apps is an alternative app store that's outside of Apple's control/moderation.