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by Animats 1634 days ago
Much of modern finance was illegal 50 years ago. The first financial future was traded on May 16, 1972. Before that, futures were confined to agricultural commodities, where they were used mostly by farmers and buyers of agricultural products. The first junk bond was sold in 1986, and it achieved the largest percentage gain on the NYSE, then in 1987 suffered the largest percentage loss. Until 1999, banks and brokerage houses were totally separate. Half a century ago, such activities were viewed as gambling. There were still people around who remembered 1929 and the Great Depression.

Finance used to be a support function for industry. Now, in the US, industry is almost a support function for finance - just something to generate numbers to bet on, like horse racing.

Cryptocurrencies are the ultimate extension of this trend. They're totally detached from any physical reality, or even economic reality. NFTs are worse. Most are overpriced pet rocks.

It's worth noting that China does not work this way. China's government has kept finance in its box, focusing investment on actually making real stuff. That seems to be working out. The US has lost the capability of making consumer electronics and telecom gear. US Steel, once the biggest steelmaker, is now in 35th place. This may end with the US a has-been country, like Britain, pining for the glory days of empire.

How does this unwind? Well, the bottom has fallen out of Axie Infinity, once the biggest NFT. It's really hard to tell the value of NFTs on OpenSea, because there's so much wash trading and not much liquidity. But it seems to be difficult for a purchaser to sell an NFT at a profit. Profits mostly flow to minters. As I point out now and then, NFTs as investments work a lot like Beanie Babies on eBay - high asking prices, low actual selling prices, large numbers of items on sale with high reserves and no bids. That's what an illiquid market looks like.

ICOs were a big thing back in 2018. Then the SEC started cracking down. Now there are few ICOs, and the SEC is working through the backlog, bringing the hammer down on about two ICO promoters per month. In the aftermath, not only were most ICOs failures [1], it's hard to find any that created a business outside cryptocurrency speculation. There's much tail-chasing in the cryptocurrency world.

Historically, that doesn't end well.

[1] https://www.investopedia.com/tech/most-successful-icos-all-t...

3 comments

US GDP in 2020 was 20.94T. According to Statista[0] "Finance, insurance, real estate, rental and leasing" accounted for 4.59T. Manufacturing accounted for 2.27T. While "Finance, insurance, real estate, rental and leasing" accounted for ~20% of GDP, I think its still a stretch to say that "in the US, industry is almost a support function for finance - just something to generate numbers to bet on, like horse racing."

"China's government has kept finance in its box, focusing investment on actually making real stuff."

What's happening with Evergrande is the opposite of keeping finance in its box. Evergrande borrowed money from banks and took money from consumers before building a condo. They then took the money and "invested" in things like football players and stadiums.[1] Consumers are left without homes. [2]

[0] https://www.statista.com/statistics/248006/real-value-added-...

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evergrande_Group#Sports

[2] https://www.france24.com/en/live-news/20210914-evergrande-dr...

I would argue that futures (and options) are still gambling. You are literally betting a price of something will be over/under a threshold on a certain date. Sports betting uses over/under and scores as thresholds, this seems no different. People might say its different than sports gambling because it is chance/luck with a team but you can do in depth research on sports teams just as much as futures/options and at the end you are still guessing and betting money.

Cryptocurrencies trade like stocks and don't operate as an actual currency for the vast majority of use cases. I like to think the phase we are in now is like pre-dotcom bust where there were startups with silly plans getting VC money. I think there is some technology (maybe ETH smart contracts and decentralized apps?) that could come out of this and maybe some businesses emerge that are legit.

> I would argue that futures (and options) are still gambling.

And you would be wrong because those instruments were designed to hedge (reduce) risk. If you are a grain producer and you are worried that the grain price might go down before your next crop you sell a future to lock the price, if you are a flour mill and worry that the price will go up you buy a future.

Can all financial instruments be used for speculation? Of course, same as buying a ton of grain not because you need it but because you expect the price to go up.

And you would be wrong because those instruments were designed to hedge (reduce) risk.

That tail now wags the dog. The futures markets in commodities are much larger than the actual markets.

This sounds like we have a new 2007 housing bubble.
> Finance used to be a support function for industry. Now, in the US, industry is almost a support function for finance - just something to generate numbers to bet on, like horse racing.

My old man once said, "You will soon find out that all the money belongs to the bankers". then he lent me this book, https://www.amazon.com/Money-Lenders-Bankers-World-Turmoil/d....