[sn1de]

It competes with anyone selling point of sale hardware. I think Square falls into that camp, no? I wouldn't want to be in that space right now. I don't see how this doesn't usurp a big chunk of their market since it isn't even a decision between buy this or buy that, but buy that or just use the thing already in my pocket.

[pedalpete]

This was my initial thinking, but then I think most businesses won't want to use a phone as their payment platform. My reasoning is that when I go into a business and I tap the Square terminal, I am assuming that terminal belongs to the business, because what individual would have their own square terminal.

If the person who is ringing me up has an iPhone, and says "just tap this", there is a part of me that is wondering if this is the company's iPhone, or their personal device? Of course, this is easily resolved with the right surround which would remove this question, but I think it's somewhat valid.

Isn't this how it works in Apple stores (I'm not an apple person). Don't they walk around with iPhones in this big chunky yellow cases, and then you just pay for stuff through that? Maybe I'm wrong...

[sebzim4500]

Are you concerned about a malicious employee using their own iphone to steal the money? Why couldn't they give you their own square terminal? On that note, when you pay cash why can't they just pocket whatever you give them?

I don't see why you care anyway, they would be stealing from the store, not from you. You would already have whatever item you are buying.

[MaysonL]

A colleague of mine owned a lunchstand, where the cook brought in his own receipt printer and used it for a large portion of daily business, and later bought the business.

[stefan_]

Because I can somewhat trust the Square terminal will show the correct amount? If I swipe some random persons iPhone, whats stopping them from showing a $10 total and charging $1000?

Is the iPhone gonna print a receipt?

[GrifMD]

This is an interesting to think about. Say you're at an ice cream stand that has a Square Reader (the little square hockey puck reader) that's paired with an iPhone running Square's payment reader.

The merchant rings you up for $5, shows you the phone in their hand indicating the cost, and the Square Reader lights up to show it's ready for payment. You pay via inserting your credit card, which processes in a few seconds, and then the payment is complete. The merchant is no longer showing you the phone, and presumably hits "No Receipt".

However, the merchant actually has a second out of sight device that is set to charge $500 and is actually paired with the Square Reader. Because you've paid with a physical card, there's a good chance you won't notice the charge till you go to pay your credit card or check your bank account.

This would probably be a short-lived scam, as the merchant's malicious Square account would have to be linked to a bank (I think this is the only option), which would identify them. I'm pretty sure Square requires ID verification of some sort as well. So reporting this malicious transaction to your bank/credit card would flag them.

Additionally, if you're paying via a mobile wallet, you'll likely get an immediate notification saying "You paid $500 to Malicious Ice Cream Vendor".

Now let's think about Apple's new plan. It could be that Apple layer's it's own mandatory interface that shows "Pay $5 to Ice Cream Vendor" regardless of the app being used. Maybe this is actually the employee's phone instead of the company's device, but that's the same as the employee stealing cash out of the register, so not really your issue.

Or Apple could not layer it's own UI, and just open up the radio as an API. Apple could require that apps that use this API to have some additional verification to prevent someone from making an app that displays "Charge $5" when it's really charging $500.

All that being said, I only see smaller merchants using iPhones + Square Readers. Maybe some boutique stores, food trucks, etc. Once a store gets large enough, they usually want dedicated hardware, even if it's a Square Stand.

---

Here's Square's hardware page if you want visuals: https://squareup.com/au/en/hardware

[aembleton]

Wouldn't you just get a notification on your phone from your credit card or bank app to say how much the transaction is for and to whom. Then you'd know straight away that something is wrong.

[stephen_g]

Can’t you turn on in your bank app to get a push notification immediately on every transaction? I have this turned on for both of my credit card accounts, so literally within a second or two of tapping or inserting (whether physical card, or Apple Pay on the watch or phone) I get a notification telling me how much was just charged to my card.

Useful for double checking that something hasn’t gone wrong and I haven’t been charged the wrong amount! I’d also see if a fraudulent transaction went through.

[danw1979]

Why do I currently trust any contactless payment terminal to debit the right amount from my Visa card ? The trust is built with every transaction.

The first time I used one of those strange little white terminals it seemed a bit dodgy ... but you pretty quickly come to trust that what's on the screen is what gets debited.

Also I doubt Apple would leave a nice app-accessible text field on the Tap To Pay dialog where I can insert my fake amount. Right ?!

[vineyardmike]

You don't have to trust them, you trust your credit card company. All you have to do is tell them its fraud and the charge goes away.

[pedalpete]

So, yes, it is a concern about a malicious actor. Likely an employee, but hey, with just an iPhone and a big enough store, can't anyone just pretend to be an employee?

I would like to go to a store where I trust the business, the employee, and the entire pipeline. I understand that is idealistic, but yes, this is how I feel. It's like saying "why do you care if the employee is underpaid, you're saving money", which describes the whole tipping culture in the US.

[globalise83]

To accept the payment successfully you must have a merchant account and have completed some KYC with one of Apple's payment partners though, surely?

[Nursie]

Square readers are dirt cheap, like $60 or less. If an employee wanted to defraud their workplace like that, it's no barrier. They'll be caught when the shop reconciles things.

Why would you need a special surround? And why is that an issue for you the consumer?

[8note]

A bunch of the Square payments are done using a company owned iPad that sits in a Square holster

[siver_john]

Anyone who is going to be buying PoS from Square at a rate greater than just the phone attachment reader, this won't be sufficient for. Using a phone for a business you personally run is fine, using a phone as the central point of your business for even a relatively small fast casual is going to be a nightmare.

And for those even on Square Apple's ipads are still the preferred choice as far as I can tell. So there isn't much of a benefit other than fees.

For anything larger than a small fast casual you quickly run into greater integration needs with things like KDS (of which a few do use tablets, Toast, Fresh, etc, and even then I think ipads are preferred. I know Square integrates with a few of those as well as NorthStar so, I don't think they may have much to fear other than at the low end mom and pop stores.

[desiarnezjr]

POS and payment hardware used to be a fairly high margin vertical hardware business, but I don't think so any longer. The real goal now is merchant / customer acquisition and service lock in. Basically I'd expect the hardware will be given away at some point.

[lostcolony]

I'm not even sure there, at least for another few years. No store, mom and pop or otherwise, would want to be "tap to pay only" as a means of taking credit card payments. There are still plenty of cards out there that don't have RFID chips.

[girvo]

Wow really? That’s surprising for some reason. Here in Australia that’s super common, RFID is in every card you can think of.

If I go to the farmers market on the weekend, they all accept cash or tap-to-pay with a Square tap-only reader, and that’s it.

[2muchcoffeeman]

Payments and mobile service are some of the more weird things about the US given how easily startups or new tech is developed there. There last time I was in the US was years ago. I still had to swipe my card in a few places and getting a new SIM involved me having to talk to someone. By this time in Australia contactless payments were almost everywhere and you just needed to go to a convenience store to get a SIM and activate online.

It looks like they are going through similar weird things with instant bank transfers. In Australia all the major banks just have instant transfers built in. I use the bank app to transfer to friends and they get notified. In the US you Venmo or PayPal or whatever.

[rconti]

Yeah, the US is finally starting to catch up with contactless. Other countries have been strange as well. My understanding is it was popular in Canada for awhile, but then terminals started disappearing?

The first time I was able to use ApplePay (as an American) was on a trip to NZ. In fact, the clerk at the gas station was shocked to see someone pay with their phone, even though this had been possible with Android for some time, and even though contactless itself was old hat there.

As for the SIM thing, that just depends so much on the business model and regulatory environment. Pay as you go is relatively unpopular in the US, and the availability reflects that. But it's not like Italy, where I had to hand over my passport (!) to get a SIM, or Germany, where I had to document where I was "living". I've heard it's even worse in, say, Chile, where you virtually need to be a citizen or permanent resident to get a SIM.

[vineyardmike]

Yea... the Apple Card doesn't have RFID chips.

[Nursie]

Why would it, you have your iPhone, right?

[vineyardmike]

Yea, practically speaking the physical card is just a trinket to get people to sign up for the card.

BUT contact free payment via card and Apple Pay contact free payments are slightly different and I’ve been to POS terminals that had one but not other. But the point was that there exists cards that don’t have nfc capabilities, including the one made by the company at center of article.

[monkeynotes]

No one uses a mag reader here in Canada. Europe ditto, and sounds like the antipodes too. I don't know anyone who doesn't have RFID cards, debit or credit. Swiping a card through a mag reader is the backup option alone here.

[lostcolony]

I'm in the US. It's not uncommon here. In fact, two of my cards, a Chase Visa, and an Amex, both only support mag stripe and chip; they do not have an RFID chip in them. I could get them replaced, but why? Every POS system supports those; not everyone supports tap to pay.

The US may be an anomaly here, but it always has been. The UK had chip and pin roll out while the US still had mag stripe being the most common; we slowly added chip and signature (we still don't have chip and pin), and now we still aren't anywhere close to universal in tap to pay.

[Nursie]

> No store, mom and pop or otherwise, would want to be "tap to pay only" as a means of taking credit card payments

In the USA maybe. Elsewhere it's already huge.

[lostcolony]

Yep, my apologies for the US centric mindset in the comment; I can't speak to elsewhere.

[ladberg]

I assume Square makes vastly more on fees than on hardware, so the opportunity to make fees off more merchants who have a smaller barrier to entry is probably beneficial, even if they don't buy hardware.

[iamacyborg]

Fees are definitely where the money is made in the payments sector, however, most proper terminals are leased so that represents a fairly large source of revenue for merchant service providers. A company I worked for were leasing terminals starting at £20 a month, and then took a cut of transactions plus a whole host of other bolt-ons like PCI non-compliance fees (which is it’s own racket, they’re not incentivised to ensure merchants are PCI compliant because it’s a significant revenue stream).

[pmart123]

Square sells hardware, but losing money on that. I don't believe it is intended to compete with payment processors providing hardware, but more so commoditizes it/flattens existing players in cases where a POS terminal system isn't needed.

[duskwuff]

Square's primary business is credit card processing. The hardware is secondary at best. (It might not even be sold at a profit!)

I would be very surprised if Apple tried to enter the credit card processing industry. It isn't the sort of thing they're positioned to do well.

[monkeynotes]

Square probably makes zilch on their hardware sales as it is, the real business is percentages on sales.

[alwillis]

It competes with anyone selling point of sale hardware

No.

It allows sole proprietors, freelancers and the like to not have to get a Square reader to take credit card transactions. That's super convenient, especially for getting a deposit from a client, for example.

It also requires a newish iPhone (iPhone XS or later device), so there will still be plenty of iPhones out there that won't support this.