[brimble]

I haven't seen any real-world evidence that high levels of individual firearm ownership correlate with the preservation of liberty and democracy. Most examples people like to bring out are resistance to a foreign occupation, typically with external assistance from a real military and/or shipments of military arms. And, perhaps tellingly, the result after the occupiers leave is rarely democracy.

Meanwhile improvised bombs seem to be far more important to and effective for a modern insurgency than firearms.

Add in that it sure seems to be more common to read about private militias aiding an authoritarian coup than successfully resisting it and I think the pro-widespread-individual-firearm-ownership faction has an uphill battle just to demonstrate that the practice is a wash, let alone beneficial to the preservation of liberty and democracy.

There are a few cases of private arms being used in anti-corruption "wars" or stand-offs in the US, but at least as many in which they're used for essentially the opposite purpose (supporting anti-liberty, and especially racist, policies and actions). In any case, the national guard stepping in tends to end these in a hurry.

The notion that the 2nd amendment is vital to the preservation of liberty and democracy in 2022 seems to be dubious at best. I'm not in favor of a blanket gun ban but I think that particular argument in favor of gun rights—which seems to be what anti-gun-regulation folks fall back on very quickly, when challenged, which makes sense as it's the reason given in founders' writings and, arguably, in the constitution—is, at best, pretty weak.

[notch656a]

>I haven't seen any real-world evidence that high levels of individual firearm ownership correlate with the preservation of liberty and democracy.

Kurds in Northern Syria.

[pphysch]

US military is occupying Northern Syria, it isn't just Kurds fighting the government on their own

[notch656a]

And that totally discounts the self defense the Kurdish people engaged in? You're grasping at straws here.

>US military is occupying

US military has presence and has engaged in (importantly) air support, but to call it "occupying" all the Kurdish territory is an intentional I think misrepresentation. It's hilarious that anyone would call it "occupying" when the boots on the ground were minimal to almost non-existent. I really don't need to go off these ignorant statements when I bore witness to what was happening with my own eyes, but I'm sure you know more from whatever you read on the internet.

[pphysch]

You implied that Syrian Kurds exemplify how effective armed civilians can be, I pointed out how that is nonsense because they are being backed operationally by the most powerful military on the planet.

[notch656a]

>You implied that Syrian Kurds exemplify how effective armed civilians can be

Yes, [ although I suppose technically they are maybe not civilians once they pick up arms in a war. ]

> I pointed out how that is nonsense because they are being backed operationally by the most powerful military on the planet.

You have no fucking idea what you're talking about, and I have the memory burned in of many now dead faces in my mind of those who died with almost no "backed operationally" presence by the US. Imagine literally being told by some dude on the internet that my personal experience defending Kurds from ISIS is wrong because he thinks based on what he read on the internet that we were 'occupied' by the US. You can say whatever you like, I'm sure it will stroke your own ego to believe that.

I can recall sitting in a border town with literal children one building over sleeping with guns, hoping they would survive. A month later I found out several of them were dead. I personally viewed this town and there was not a single US soldier there, barely enough provisions to survive, and those defending themselves had essentially no US weapons.

The effort of the Kurds fighting Syrian government and ISIS is critical to their defense; the US contribution standing on its own is completely incapable of maintaining Kurdish Syria. The boots on the ground is by far Kurds (not part of Syrian gov) themselves, with arms largely either coming from those privately stashed or brought in via militia. In a number of attacks on Kurdish territory such as in Kobani, essentially anyone with arms engaged in defense with whatever they had.

[gscott]

Mexico