[adriancr]

so what stopped you from complying?, the fact that the rule was stupid was sufficient motivation for you to disregard it and annoy a flight attendant enough that you get screamed at and have your trip made unpleasant? (and possibly annoy and make other people uncomfortable as well?)

What would have been your reaction had a passenger politely asked you to put it on properly as everyone else? (asking since I would do that and not sure what to expect anymore)

[nate_meurer]

Why would you scold someone for wearing a mask improperly when you know everyone's about to remove their masks completely as soon as the snacks come out? What's the point of that?

[adriancr]

You could have the decency to answer questions first and not reply with a question.

I would do that as not wearing a mask properly is poor manners, does not respect other people's boundaries and I think it should be corrected.

Now, do you mind answering what your reaction to that would be?, also how come it's such a big enough issue to ruin your trip?

[nate_meurer]

I'm not the OP, and I haven't flown on a plane since before COVID. But if I do, I'll wear a mask properly if asked simply because I am terrified of getting in trouble with airlines.

Restaurants are different. I've dined in restaurants dozens of times in last two years. I have never worn a mask, and now I don't even carry one with me. On one single occasion I was told by a host at the front to put a mask on. I ignored him and walked to the table, where the act of sitting apparently deactivated the virus and it became acceptable for us all to dine unmasked with dozens of other diners talking, laughing, and in some cases coughing, sneezing, and singing very unsafe birthday songs.

When we rise from our seats after our meals the virus apparently re-activates, however I've never gotten even a glance from anyone while walking out of a restaurant unmasked. Nobody cares, because I think everyone understands that the rules make no sense.

I appreciate your frank admission that masking on planes and in restaurants is merely a ritual done to fulfill other people's irrational expectations. I agree that it has become a intensely strange example of cargo-cultism and virtue signalling, one which I am uncomfortable conforming to simply to respect the "boundaries" of the scolds.

[adriancr]

> I appreciate your frank admission that masking on planes and in restaurants is merely a ritual done to fulfill other people's irrational expectations.

I did not say or imply that it's a useless ritual.

What I did want to say is, it's a rule explained in advance, if people don't agree they can pick an airline that doesn't have it.

To answer the mask off during lunch premise. I don't agree with serving lunches on airplanes.

That said, lunches are served on long flights, they take 30 min out of a 9-10h flight, there is a risk but it's not as high as not having them.

Airlines have to serve food... people go hungry, hungry people are unruly... can't avoid it.

I hope you get my point.

> I am uncomfortable conforming to simply to respect the "boundaries" of the scolds

Respect other people's boundaries and respect the rules of carriage then. It's the same as respecting any other rule in society.

> Restaurants are different.

Sure, I also go to outdoor restaurants that are widely spaced, I don't worry there about catching covid... unless someone starts coughing at which point I would leave. I dont have the space and can't just leave an airplane.

> I'm not the OP,

Oh, I apologize, I'll pay attention in the future.

[nate_meurer]

If you're willing to scold someone for improper masking simply to enforce "manners" or "boundaries", regardless of whether the rules have any realistic practical effect, then by definition you're talking about ritualistic conformity-- a cultural behavior whose purpose is to signal that you belong to a certain group.

This sort of hyper-conformist signaling is rampant across the political spectrum. For example, American right-wing populists who compete for patriotic points with the number of flags they wave, colors they wear, and the number of references to "the American people" and "our great nation" their favorite politicians utter. To them it's a matter of life and death. To me it's embarassing and a distraction.

> Lunches are served on long flights, they take 30 min out of a 9-10h flight...

No, it's not just 30 minutes out of an entire flight. Any cross-country flight provides at least two meals and several snacks and drinks. Longer international flights provide at least three. And you are explicitly allowed to have your mask off any time you are snacking or drinking, which can happen any time during the flight without limits. My wife flew international a few months ago, and there were many people who effectively went maskless for the entire flight, between snacks, drinks, meals, sleeping, or simply sitting unmasked in the dark reading a book. As long as people dutifully mask up when they get up to move about the cabin, complaints are rare.

> there is a risk but it's not as high as not having them.

Citation please. Please show your evidence that the risk of transmission from allowing people on a crowded plane to remove their masks for indefinite periods of time (which is what's happening) is any less than not having them at all. And then explain why it matters when, in actuality, manners and boundaries are the only reason you need to scold someone for not having their nose covered when they're not eating.

Regardless of how little sense these rules make with regard to safety, it seems clear that we're not actually having a conversation about safety here, but rather about personality conflicts. It's clear to me that in some situations you're making rational decisions based on perceived risk, for example, avoiding indoor dining. That makes sense based on what we know about how covid works.

But you're also displaying a rather conformist personality with your admission that rational justifications for rules are less important to you than fulfilling expectations of the group to which you want to belong, to the extent that you're willing to scold people for insignificant infractions of the code. That just makes you a mask-karen, and predictably sets you up for the fights with anti-mask-karens that I so enjoy reading about.

On the other side there are rebellious personalities who become less likely to do something the moment someone tells them they should. Notice that these two personalities often go together. It's no accident that many of the rebellious anti-maskers and anti-vaxxers are also hyper-conformist flag-wavers.

People like me are sort of stuck in an awkward tension between these two extremes. My wife and I are triple-vaccinated, my kids are vaccinated, and we observed masking and distancing guidelines when it was important to avoid possibly exposing vulnerable friends and family members before the vaccines were available.

But I also strongly believe that cargo-culting and ritualistic conformity is dangerous to a society. Non-sensical rules and restrictions make us all stupider, and they divert energy from efforts that do actually make a difference, like vaccination. They also deepen political and cultural divides and create conflict unnecessarily, like mask-karens and anti-mask karens arguing over how much of a nose is uncovered when there are other people nearby completely unmasked while they eat their peanuts. That's actual insanity.

You are vaccinated right? Otherwise this whole conversation is just ridiculous.

[adriancr]

> Citation please. Please show your evidence that the risk of transmission

I did not ask for citation when you made the reverse statement. For me it's common sense, less exposure time, safer...

> we're not actually having a conversation about safety here, but rather about personality conflicts.

You keep trying to steer things towards that. Answer would be no, I still think its safer to wear a mask as long as reasonably possible.

Now, a yes answer would also be interesting at which point, why is it so hard to respect some rules even if it doesn't make sense for you and are not immediately obvious?

You seem to make an assumption over and over and don't seem to consider that maybe, the foundation for that is wrong... hence dig into your position.

For me, even if what you say is correct, conforming to a rule for a duration of a flight is no different then conforming to any other minor thing such as wearing a seatbelt. Sure, that'd also maybe stupid, but whatever, i have other things to do.

> That just makes you a mask-karen

Have you ever attempted to jump a queue in Britain?, would you call those people karens too?

If yes, the sure.

> On the other side there are rebellious personalities who become less likely to do something the moment someone tells them they should.

Not my problem to psychoanalize and don't care enough to manipulate, just make people aware of the rule, then let flight attendant know, no scolding either... perhaps you also misunderstood, there's a difference between polite remark and going full-karen.

> My wife and I are triple-vaccinated, my kids are vaccinated, and we observed masking and distancing guidelines when it was important

Great, me too, so what's the argument about then?

> Non-sensical rules and restrictions make us all stupider, and they divert energy from efforts that do actually make a difference, like vaccination.

What if they are not stupid?

> They also deepen political and cultural divides and create conflict unnecessarily,

Yes, people don't like to be made uncomfortable, I was curious of the internal machinations, I guess its clear now.

> arguing over how much of a nose is uncovered when there are other people nearby completely unmasked while they eat their peanuts.

Rule is if you eat take it off, when you're done, put it fully back on... Why is it so hard to comply?

> You are vaccinated right? Otherwise this whole conversation is just ridiculous.

Of course, I like living...

[patrick451]

Hard disagree. Wearing a mask is not "good manners", it is a sign of weak minded subservience.

[adriancr]

> it is a sign of weak minded subservience.

So is wearing seatbelts, following a queue properly, paying taxes, and any other number of things we do while out in society...

It's funny how my parents generation had the same arguments against seatbelts and some refuse to wear them even today and get ticketed... or suddently put them on when seeing a police car...

They're not dead yet so in their mind they are right, and seatbelts are useless.

Are you going to argue against those as well?