[h0l0cube]

I'm couching a problem in a capitalist frame, I made no assertion that we live in a perfectly capitalist economy. The irony is that China understands the economic value of quality of life better than the US, with the latter making a lot of fuss about the primacy of economy in decision making.

[seanmcdirmid]

> China understands the economic value of quality of life better than the US

I don’t get what you mean, quality of life can be really low in China (eg no indoor heat in southern China in the winter mean the girls selling snacks at the train station are wearing jackets and gloves while still freezing), but people put up with it.

[h0l0cube]

I might be naive here, but to my understanding the vast majority have access to housing and quality education in comparison to the US?

[seanmcdirmid]

Nope, you are being naive. Compulsory education only goes through the 8th grade, so many (40-60%) don’t have a high school education, let alone a quality education (if from the rural area, your school will suck, and the hukou system means you might not be able to get an education at all in the city your family moved to to make money).

China doesn’t technically have homeless people since many of the grifters in their cities have land back home (again, because of the hukou system, your home is hard to change). However, they migrate to cities to try and not starve to death, and might wind up sleeping under an underpass (or somewhere the police can’t find them, to avoid getting beaten). A lot of people who are poor but still have money live in basement rooms (no window, would be illegal in the USA, it’s actually illegal in China as well but rule of law is not a Chinese thing), see https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ant_tribe.

Middle class Chinese do well, but they are just a small part of a country with 1.4 billion people. Not everyone lives like they were from Shanghai.

[h0l0cube]

Fair call. You seem to know more than I do

[davmar]

So you're saying that if we did live under perfect capitalism, these problems wouldn't exist. But it's impossible to live under perfect anything, so it seems that instead of trying to become more capitalist, we ought to pick the system that works best while imperfect. Today I handed out survival kits at a homeless encampment. People are cold, tired and hungry. Child poverty, homelessness....this system is not working.

Anyway agreed on China. They've pulled 800 million people out of poverty.

[h0l0cube]

> So you're saying that if we did live under perfect capitalism, these problems wouldn't exist

Nope. But going back to my OP, I think this is a sound rationale for someone of a capitalist mindset to support welfare. It's fair to say that a capitalist society with perfectly rational actors does not exist. Its also quite possible that there are rational counterpoints within the capitalist frame that completely invalidate my argument - but I haven't seen that yet in this thread.

> Today I handed out survival kits at a homeless encampment. People are cold, tired and hungry. Child poverty, homelessness....this system is not working.

I agree.

Disclaimer: I think that unchecked capitalism is wrong, not just because humans are irrational actors, but that it's immoral for humans to serve an economy instead of the economy serving humans. The latter requires broad geopolitical intervention and the global will of people to hold their governments to account. But we always must remember that economies are human constructs, and one that can be changed with enough motivation.

[mensetmanusman]

China did this by becoming more capitalistic and interacting with the whole world. Many countries like India also eliminated hundreds of millions of cases of poverty, and it didn’t require forced sterilizations or a dictator.