[mullr]

Yeah, it's really not. You CAN do knuth-style literate programming in org-mode (https://orgmode.org/manual/Extracting-Source-Code.html) I used it to make http://mullr.github.io/micrologic/literate.html.

The experience completely cured me of Knuth-style literate programming, fwiw. It's really great for making a lasting artifact about a program that's completely done. But I can count the number of programs I've worked on like that on zero fingers. Even this one isn't really done, but the cost of updating the essay along with the code discouraged me from working on it any more.

[ParetoOptimal]

> It's really great for making a lasting artifact about a program that's completely done.

My emacs configuration is the exact opposite of a program that's completely done, but I find literate programming good for managing it's complexity.

> The experience completely cured me of Knuth-style literate programming, fwiw.

If it's not too much to ask, do you mind sharing some of the pain points?

[mullr]

> If it's not too much to ask, do you mind sharing some of the pain points?

To me, the point of literate programming is that you have a coherent (literate, if you well) document that explains how the program actually works, and the reason it's put together how it is. This is NOT an easy thing to write. It takes as much organization as the program itself. I found the document structure to be continuously in flux, as I updated the program to deal with new requirements. So either document would poorly structured, or I would spend a LOT of time keeping it good.

[svat]

Note that Knuth has written dozens of books and is perpetually making edits and corrections to them (not just typos, but often extensive rewrites while making sure that the book remains coherent as a whole): this is an activity that comes easily to him, so one can see how he can do it with programs too. The rest of us may find it harder.

But then again, we can ask: if we cannot keep the program's document structure as a whole up-to-date, then are we really editing the program properly? A major risk of introducing bugs is that one may edit a part of a program without taking into account the broader context, such that the integrity of the program is lost, and literate programming (which forces us to update "the whole program" every time) can be considered a mitigation of this risk… so IMO the greater time that it takes to update the whole program could actually be a good thing, saving time in debugging or whatever.

Edit: Also, part of the trick is to put only as much as you think is really relevant in the "text" part: literate programming does not necessarily mean over-commenting everything (Knuth doesn't either), it's just an orientation that what you're doing is writing a document. It's ok for most of that document to be code, as long as you think you've presented it well enough.

[joseph8th]

Yeah, I encountered this difficulty while writing the "literate" API documentation that my blog post was based on. The example in my post is very simplistic. The real thing makes numerous database queries to set up data, then creates an entire mock "client" with a mock employee, mock location, mock services, appointments, etc., by making successive requests to the (local dev) API. Order matters. And it's still a pretty simple example of literate programming (if, as someone mentioned earlier, it could be called "literate programming" at all in the sense that Knuth meant it).

In that regard, I'd say it is. True, we don't tangle and weave to separate artifacts. In fact, it doesn't tangle at all. However, I'd argue that in this case that isn't the point of the program. It's essentially a TUI to build an HTML artifact. Obviously we can't tangle `restclient` source blocks, but nor are we just dumping the results of `restclient` requests. Everything is piped into bash and post-processed by `jq` to clean up the final result for display.

That said, I accept that it's still not really "literate programming". It's literate API documentation.

[nesarkvechnep]

I’ve experimented with NOWEB in the past and it’s cool. I would imagine it being good for teaching. Like “these are the steps we have to take to accomplish the desired result” and then break down every step with the ability to actually build the code at the end.