[xg15]

But are you actively dismantling it by making race a core part of everyone's identity?

Seems to me, the outcome of the current movements might as well be that one group will have unfair privileges in one area while another group might have unfair privileges in another area. In the end, that seems as it would lead to embedding racial divides even deeper into society.

[wpietri]

I didn't make race a core part of everyone's identity. America did that long ago. What I am doing is pointing out that system still exists and how much trouble it still causes.

I understand why "ignore it and it will go away" is appealing to people. It sounds like way less work! But part of the way racism and sexism operate is by discouraging examination of those systems. By making the empowered group the default, the norm, and refusing to look at the differential treatment. For example, look at Mitch McConnell's recent division of "Americans" vs "African-Americans": https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/video/2022/jan/21/mitch-...

And that's just one example of a very widespread phenomenon. Here's another https://xkcd.com/385/

So ignoring the problem ends up supporting the problem. However much we would like to pretend that this problem will get better on its own, history tells power systems rarely if ever just give up on their own: https://thenib.com/great-moments-in-peaceful-protest-history...

[xg15]

Good points - also, to be clear, that was supposed to be a plural "you", apologies for the ambiguity.

I think (as a white non-american) that there is a difference between seeing race-blindness as the ultimate goal - which is not yet archieved and won't be for the foreseeable future - or seeing race-blindness as an explicit non-goal.

I think the OP is arguing for the first variant. My impression is, current anti-racism/identity movements are more advocating the second variant and are emphasizing blacks and whites as fundamentally separate groups, which cannot and should not be reconciled.

If this is really the case, I believe this is some major shift of objective - and I'm honestly puzzled what the "ideal society" that we should work towards would actually be in the second case.

There is also a difference between past atrocities which must be made up in some form and discrimination that continues in the present. I agree that the history of slavery and genocide in the history of american settlers is far from being appropriately processed. This is something that must be taught in schools and attempts to make up for the evils must be made - maybe even as some form of reparations, though I have no idea how that could work in practice.

However, it's also clear you cannot punish persons that live today and had no choice about whether or not those atrocities took place.

I think more talk between black and white people about some kind of positive vision of the future that all could work towards for would be more constructive - if it's possible at all to build such a vision.

[wpietri]

I think what you're missing is that arguing prematurely for race blindness is a important and frequently used tool in preserving America's white supremacy. A major way white men practice identity politics is by complaining about "identity politics". You can see that going on nakedly in our fight over the next Supreme Court justice.

Do I think race blindness is a good goal for 200 years from now? Yes. Do I think race blindness should be an explicit non-goal for the next 50? Also yes.

I agree that more talk about positive visions for the future is useful. But I think you're placing that in false contrast with frank and explicit discussion of current problems and of the necessary awareness needed to make visions real. And I think you should read MLK about how this sort of "can't we all just get along" thinking is a barrier to solving problems: https://www.africa.upenn.edu/Articles_Gen/Letter_Birmingham....