[aaronchall]

Maybe you should look within.

I'm still a long ways from understanding everything Nix/NixOS completely, but I've never gotten these kinds of comments apart from the extremely reasonable "you should start out by reading the introduction docs" - that the directions lead with.

And if you have a problem with that, I can see how you might have provoked that kind of response that seems so out of character to me.

I ask questions when I have them, and sometimes I get answers from them, and sometimes I answer them myself.

But I started off reading as much of the docs as I could tolerate before and while getting started, and always trying to self-help before asking for help.

[kstenerud]

This is a pretty good example the kind of victim blaming I'm talking about. It's a kind of insidious toxicity that permeates certain communities, although I've not been able to put my finger on what exactly brings it out, or why it's so tightly clung to as an acceptable behavior in some places.

I actually tried to help for awhile, and even started a help guide https://github.com/kstenerud/nixos-beginners-handbook/

But eventually one gets ground down and demoralized enough to just give up. It's a real shame, because I LOVE what NixOS is trying to accomplish.

[aaronchall]

I'm not trying to judge you harshly. I'm trying to understand.

In your first post in this thread, "high tier" NixOS users were called condescending sadists. This is a libel as far as I can tell based on my own experience.

Then was a list of disliked phrases, and second to last in that list was the instruction to read the manual. I believe in reading manuals, as difficult and time-consuming as the effort may be. This made me think expectations for using the project were wrong.

Now you're linking to a repo you made to attempt to give new users a guide to getting started.

You clearly made an effort to be part of the solution. This is admirable.

I'm trying to connect dots here - what I think happened was, in the course of trying to get help filling in the blanks, you probably exhausted the patience of others trying to help you.

I question if what you've been trying to do works at this point in the project's lifecycle. What you're trying to do is hard enough in a completely mature project. In an environment where we acknowledge the incompleteness of documentation, new command line APIs that are evolving, and new ways of doing things (I'm currently thinking of containers after looking at your guide, and flakes as well), communicating a true North is extremely difficult especially if you aren't one of the core developers immersed in the current state of change.

I don't think the project is mature enough to declare a "right way" to do all the things. I don't think we have enough mature users to support filling in all the blanks, yet, either.

I'm sorry you've had the experience you've had. Maybe after taking a break, you can resume your efforts, but with tempered expectations. We're all asking a lot of people who volunteer their time to build what should be acknowledged as a strategically important approach to computing.

We need more experts. The experts we do have are over-worked and under-appreciated. Perhaps you can help us there one day too.

[kstenerud]

Yes what you say absolutely all makes sense. My main gripe is that of culture, not substance.

It's understood and well communicated that the project is not mature enough to be an easy experience for a new user, and that's perfectly fair. But unfortunately, there's a degree of gatekeeperism going on in this community that is making the environment toxic for newcomers.

I've only seen it a few times before, but in every case, the longtimers seem unable to see it, and dismiss complaints by newcomers out of hand. Of course it's to be expected that a certain cohort of newcomers will be toxic and entitled, in which case one would absolutely be justified in dismissing them.

But that is not the case here, especially judging from the sheer number of upvotes my comments on this matter have received, and the number of blog posts in the wild about this very topic.

This is not a problem of maturity, but one of culture. And this is what exhausted me and made me give up on my attempt to make things better.