[it_does_follow]

> these tanks

> those solar panels

> these batteries

The problem with these "self-sufficient" narratives is they're always tethered to industrial society. Having the limit of your understanding be a "solar panel" is no different than it being a wall socket. The "world" itself here, the boat in this case, is manufactured in a factory.

That's not to say I don't also find this stuff interesting, but don't confuse being able to hold your breath a long time for having gills. I find free diving fascinating, but there is no need in that community to claim that they have found a way of living free from the constraints of air breathing.

[doctor_eval]

I find this to be a really ungenerous take.

Nobody is claiming that they live in a non-industrial society. They clearly live on a fibreglass sailing vessel and use electronic navigation aides. The "narrative", as you put it, is simply to use less, to "double your capacity by halving your consumption", to live life in a humble and sustainable way, and to do as much as you can with what you already have.

I found the entire website to have a dreamy and non-judgemental approach to everything, and I envy their lifestyle. They are just doing what they do, and documenting it so that others can learn with them, and maybe to encourage us to aspire to do a little better with our lives.

Maybe you could avoid judging them, in return?

[rgrieselhuber]

I'm always mystified by the animosity I see toward anything resembling decentralization on HN, despite the fact that it is a forum populated by Computer Scientists who are very well aware of the benefits of decentralization when it comes to computer systems.

[alar44]

I think it's a bit of a paradox. If everyone lived like that, no one would be able to live like that.

"All I need is a battery, a solar panel, copper wiring encased in plastic, a mining company to dig the ore out, a chemical refinery to help refine the ore, an oil rig, a team to run it, a chemistry lab to make the plastic, a small town to create this portable computer for me..."

[doctor_eval]

There's no paradox, because nobody is being directed to live "like that". It's a story of some people's life that some of us find interesting, not a manifesto, nor a demand that others like they do.

[mediocregopher]

> I think it's a bit of a paradox. If everyone lived like that, no one would be able to live like that.

Is it unthinkable for someone to leave their humble dwelling, with few amenities, and head down to a factory where these amenities are built? Just because we don't use a particular technology at home doesn't mean we can't do so in a factory.

Put another way, there's very little about most people's home lifestyle which directly begets a microprocessor, and yet microprocessors are still made.

[alar44]

Microprocessors are made because people collectively contribute to "the grid". The ability to live off "the grid" is made possible by "the grid" itself. Unless you are building tools from raw materials. Going out and buying a bunch of modern technology made by the grid to live off of it is kind of ironic. Fine by me but I get parent's point. There's something a bit privileged about it.

[ryandrake]

I agree with you and OP. Are you really going “off grid” if, to do so, you are reliant on all these things only made on the grid? I mean, even the Amish are not “off grid” if you look at their supply chain. I’m not going to be the guy who gatekeeps the phrase, but it is definitely ironic the way people use it.

[an_ko]

What counts as "truly" off grid to you? Start nude with a rock? Even primitive people were born into a world with pre-existing humans who have some form of technology. It's not electricity, but there is a "grid" of some form.

[doctor_eval]

But you are gatekeeping the phrase, to the point of taking the term so literally that it becomes devoid of meaning.

To me, “off grid” simply means being entirely self reliant for all aspects of your well-being, for a period of time.

Bobbing around in a tiny plastic boat in the middle of the enormous Pacific Ocean with literally no possibility of connection to any other human is just about as off grid as you can get on this Earth.

Just because they reconnect to the grid occasionally to top up and download, doesn’t invalidate this. The truth remains that they are “on-grid” far less than most of us.

[jefurii]

So these people are trying to do some good, and your criticism of them is that they're not perfect? Tell me how much good are you doing?

It's not possible to live completely off the grid. Is that a reason not to try at all?

[alar44]

Perfect? Perfectly what? How much good am I doing?

I don't know that you're talking about, sorry.

[kortilla]

Is it sustainable to give everyone a boat and all of that stuff though? Is this really any different from a walk through of a big off grid estate with rain collection, batteries, solar, chickens, grains, etc?

Just because there is a nice closed loop on day to day resource usage, it doesn’t make something sustainable nor something to strive for to help with climate change.

[notahacker]

I think this is a fair take, and I actually live off grid, on a boat.

But I will say one thing. I may be completely reliant on sealed batteries manufactured in a Korean factory and bought off the internet whose inner workings I only understand in very generic terms. But I spend a lot more time thinking about where my power comes from and how much of it I have left than the average person living in the average house. (I also use a lot less, although the climate impact of that is probably offset by inefficient generation and dirty heating in the winter)

[rgrieselhuber]

The fallacy here though seems to be that, because we have industrial society, we also have to accept centralization as part of the deal. These technologies enable fewer dependencies on centralized systems, which is the real driver behind off the grid philosophies, IMO.

[ericmcer]

It feels less off the grid and more like, an alternative method of being on the grid. They are still reliant on the vast majority of people being on the grid and supporting their lifestyle.

That said live your life however you want. It would be dumb to live in misery trying to meet some arbitrary standard. If you can exploit the way the world is to have a nice life and you aren't hurting anybody who cares. It is kind of annoying when people who choose to "disconnect" thoroughly document it.

[vitiral]

I agree, there are many problems to solve. Check out civboot.org

Some of the folks at 100r made uxn, which helped inspire my approach to github.com/civboot/fngi

[16012022]

As far as I know, "industrial society" will still last for another centuries so there's no "problem to this narrative" as you say. It's like saying "the problem with life on Earth is that it depends on the sun which will explode some time in the future"

[Gigachad]

They also get promoted as the future of fighting climate change while ignoring the fact that these solutions not only don't scale, but they can consume more resources than a fully integrated in to the system person. Setting up your own rain tanks, batteries, solar farm etc takes up a lot of resources and land space. It's debatable that they are doing anything better for the environment than someone who lives in an inner city apartment, who doesn't purchase many consumer goods, and benefits from highly efficient economies of scale like getting power from a nuclear power plant.

[pbourke]

> land space

They’re living on a boat, so wouldn’t that be literally zero land space?

[dmitriid]

Except all the infrastructre on land they use: ports, showers, waste disposal, food provisioning...

[Gigachad]

Same thing goes. It wouldn't scale for everyone to go live on boats.

[Klonoar]

I don’t believe they claim the boat to be anything other than their desired way to live. Most people in this thread seem to be injecting that the boat is a sustainability bit, but if you read their older blog posts it doesn’t come across that way necessarily.