[user123456780]

> Being masterfully either technically, socially, or politically have a lot to do with it too, it seems.

I don't think you need to be a master to get more money. What I have noticed as a hiring manager/tech lead is candidates/team members fall into either asking for more money or not.

I have guys on my team who if they asked for money I could easily add 20 - 50k to their salary. But they don't, they also don't shop themselves about. They're low risk of jumping ship and if they do, I can offer them a huge amount to stay or with the savings I have made over the years I can replace them at market rates, suffer the disruption of introducing a new team member and still be ahead.

I luckily learnt early on the best thing to do for your career is just ask for more money. Every 6 months I ask for a pay rise. I don't always get it and if I don't I ask 'what do I need to do get more money'. Your boss should be able to tell you what you need to do to justify another 10 - 20k to your salary

[jandrewrogers]

Allow me to give a slightly different perspective. When engineers are consistently outperforming their wage, I immediately recognize that with an unsolicited pay increase to match their performance. This has always been met with appreciation, as it demonstrates both that outperformance is actively recognized and rewarded, and secondarily that management is looking out for the benefit of the employees. This has positive cultural impact.

This is more or less difficult depending on the company. In a few cases, I had to go to war with HR to get a deserving employee a raise who deserved it but hadn't asked for it. Other companies have processes that are highly amenable to it.

In many cases, if employees have to ask for more money when they've earned it then it is a management failure.

[kodemager]

I understand this management philosophy well, but it’s also very dangerous because you risk hiring people like me, who share salary information with everyone that wants to.

A few decades ago I started working at a place where a couple of really talented people had never asked for a raise. I negotiated indirectly by talking about better opportunities and head hunters with my boss as well as asking for more pay. I got it every year. After a couple of years someone asked me what I was making and it turned out I was making a significantly amount more money than a lot of the senior staff members.

This was very nice for the budgets, but it eventually lead to everyone important to the department finding new jobs over a period of five years. When I stated it was a great place to work with really talented people, when I left it wasn’t because the talent had left and management had a really hard time convincing their managers that they needed to up the starting wages, because the budget had been just fine for so long.

This is very anecdotal of course, but underpaying technicians for years can be a very dangerous strategy under the right circumstances.

[manapause]

Just as the tools and processes in building a product must be documented and improved over time ... so too must the compensations of the employees be improved, documented via employee handbooks, and communicated by culture that "if our business succeeds - you will succeed for it is written!"

and the talented, who are focused on their craft - will feel that the company will take care of them _as a matter of course_.

If the talent feels a Quality of Life upgrading process is met - then they will stop wondering how green the grass is somewhere else. Then and only then will the business be ready to foster a culture of mentorship, collaboration, and documentation from Senior to Junior.

It makes me very sad to see a junior developer I had taken onto my team at my last company 3 years ago - a budding talent in systems who didn't know how to ask for help - is still considered a "junior developer." if you don't know how to give people hope don't be surprised if they're hopeless.

[reikonomusha]

I think maneuvering a pay discussion and "shopping yourself around" qualify to me as being somewhat masterful both socially and politically. Especially if you're just plain average at your job and have no successes of note. I do agree more people could get more money by asking, but what turns many off to doing that is what to do in the face of rejection.

[amitport]

This just feel unjust for me.

It bothers me to see a coworker getting underpaid just because they have certain personality traits (that are unrelated to their actual work).

I will be less likely to stay at such a place, even if for me personally the pay is fine.

[reikonomusha]

One thing to realize is that a manager has a lot of things to consider for their job in totality. Hiring, planning, documenting, budgeting, retention, lateral and upward management, team stability, etc. I'm not suggesting to be apologetic to them, but at most places, a manager has to put up a bit of a fight to get a significant raise for a subordinate. Even more so if it's out of salary band. Even more so if it's out of cycle. Most managers know their budget of political capital, and know the abstract cost on getting someone a raise out of thin air, and many feel it's squandering.

If a manager is just plainly average at their job, then they'll probably prioritize what is very clearly and evidently an issue/task for them to do, which is usually what their boss is asking them to do, for better or for worse.

So it's not that a manager is being deeply unethical and withholding promotion potential because they're evil, they just may not see it as a priority among everything else they have to do, especially if the subordinate in question appears happy and fulfilled.

I agree with some others here. To really ensure you're being paid fairly as an employee, you do have to normalize making it a discussion with your boss. If it's a priority for you, it'll more likely be a priority for them, assuming they look at you in favorable light.

[amitport]

I wouldn't blame anyone personally, but it is what it is. If eventually, this is what's happening often, then the workplace feels unjust to me. It doesn't matter if the cause is some manager, HR, CEO, etc.,. (Sometimes I imagine it can even be the cultural impact of somebody that already left the company...)

[greyface-]

> I have guys on my team who if they asked for money I could easily add 20 - 50k to their salary. But they don't

Give them a raise, proactively.