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by abernard1 1616 days ago
> From what I can see Microsoft stack is used mostly by enterprises that are not engineering centric.

I'm going to counter this anecdote with my anecdote. I have spent roughly half of my time in the boring world and half in the HN "sexy" tech world. 25 years of programming experience and have had immense failures and some pretty good successes.

Unquestionably, the sexy tech people were—and to this day are—worse technologists than the boring enterprise software people. I have worked at two unicorns.

One of things I believe to be true (and which is probably offensive but here goes) is that the sexy work is a direct result of over-financialization of the sector. It's a form of signaling: "Hey, our business model is so successful we can afford this shitty niche technology and hiring too many people."

There is a direct correlation between people using trendy yet mediocre technology and comments like "let's be practical" and explaining why your software can be worse than it is, because those companies don't actually need technology. As well, the people that manage those organizations are not particularly impressive because they need large groups of people to scale. (It's also why people like a16z can have the gall to claim 10x devs is not a thing, because if it were, the SV model of get-big-quick and hiring huge amount of devs with big capital and unsustainable unit economics would not be a successful proposition.)

Since the late 90s, the governing model has been: "Hey, that's cool what you do. But have you thought about putting it on The Internet?". It's the Portlandia bird sketch but with Put a Web On It. Apply this to Big Data or ML etc. This model has been very good for growth, but it requires absolutely minimal technical expertise.

2 comments

I feel like there is some true observation you've made, but I can not figure out what it is from this text.

I absolutely agree with your opening statement about the flashy new operations usually being crap engineers, but cannot follow any of the rest or see ho it supports that assertion.

Or what little I can parse, seems backwards from my own experience.

For instance, the most I hear the word "practical" is to justify doing something inefficient but safe, ie use a microsoft product or service and accept it's limitations and cost, or some other safe inefficient choice like vmware before azure was a thing, etc.

So it doesn't support the idea that it's something the ignorant kids say, OR the opposite that the better engineers say it, it's just sort of a non-sequiter or something.

Personally I've grown to hate the word even though of course one has to use it and it's a valid concept to be practical. I just see it way over used to justify predictability over goodness.

The manager types don't really care about advancing anything. They do lip service to the idea of making more money by making something more efficient, but really any change at all is worse than any promised gain. Really they would love nothing better than to just keep cranking the machine they have now exactly the same way forever. They only change by force when the machine stops producing.

> For instance, the most I hear the word "practical" is to justify doing something inefficient but safe, ie use a microsoft product or service and accept it's limitations and cost, or some other safe inefficient choice like vmware before azure was a thing, etc.

Sure, I hear you and I've experienced this too. I've been on nightmare ASP.net spaghetti code projects that would be good fodder for programming sites. VB projects that are a stitched-together set of tools with a frontend full of a million buttons, etc.

But on the flip side, have you never worked at a company full of Ruby/PHP/Python engineers that have trouble getting their software to build and run correctly? People with billions of dollars who find the prospect of putting something on a web page—for a business model that has existed for a century—challenging? I have many times, and it's a reflection of how insular that segment of the industry is that they don't find anything weird about this.

In contrast, there's an army of JVM engineers out there that don't spend any time on HN because the JVM solved the problems HN talks about 20 years ago. They don't need to talk about it or consider it "news" because it isn't. For instance, the technical level of InfoQ is whole echelons higher than here. This is not to disparage the very real benefits that the "Hacker" mentality has provided to the world. SV are accomplished business and product people, and they've managed to impress the world with the type of organizational scale they can deliver. But technical it ain't.

"have you never worked at a company full of Ruby/PHP/Python engineers that have trouble getting their software to build and run correctly? People with billions of dollars who find the prospect of putting something on a web page—for a business model that has existed for a century—challenging?"

Ohhhh yeah. Yes.

> One of things I believe to be true (and which is probably offensive but here goes) is that the sexy work is a direct result of over-financialization of the sector. It's a form of signaling: "Hey, our business model is so successful we can afford this shitty niche technology and hiring too many people."

How much of that was a result of companies wanting to use Linux server-side and MS not supporting it?

Truthfully, I don't think that has much to do with it. There is a real cultural difference between the MS ecosystem, Linux or no, and the traditional open source ecosystem.

I was simultaneously an open source advocate (using FreeBSD 3.0) back at the point when NT4 was supposed to take over the world, and using VB and the Microsoft JVM. Back then and still today there's a lot of cruft with the MS ecosystem.

What I'm getting at is if you look at truly advanced software and what might be called "engineering" practices, there seems to be no correlation with marketing hype. Cosmos is to me the most advanced cloud NoSQL database out there feature-for-feature. I think Citus is the coolest sharded database in its particular space. C# has been pretty advanced relative to say Java for quite some time. Windows systems engineers did in fact know quite a lot, despite all the crud they had to put up with the endless parade of new MS features. The best ops person I know that built a huge unicorn that runs on Linux uses Windows as his laptop when everyone else uses Mac.

There's a bad habit in tech news of looking at the success of a company and equating it with the talent or technology choices of the engineering team. Very often, successful businesses provide enough padding for unsophisticated trendy technology to fail without consequence to the business. Likewise, many low-margin, crummy businesses are only around because they have high tech talent which can compensate.