[jimbokun]

Yes, your comment is exactly part of the problem I am talking about.

You write long sentences and use sophisticated vocabulary, but what you are saying is that the truth or value of a belief or an idea depends on the person speaking or writing it. Not on the quality of the belief or idea itself. This is sophisticated tribalism.

"I don't really want to debate any of these specifically so won't engage further on them."

Of course. Because truth or challenging your own preconceptions are not important to you. Just reinforcing your alliance to your self perceived tribe.

[giraffe_lady]

You said you were shocked by people rejecting classical liberalism. I offered some of the reasons I've rejected classical liberalism.

I don't think it's possible to evaluate an idea purely on its own merits, without considering the people forming, executing, and effected by it. I don't think it would be meaningful if you could.

That may be irreconcilable with your worldview! That doesn't give you a view into my mind or soul and tell me what is or isn't important to me. It's possibly that I don't value what you consider to be The Truth.

Honestly the idea that there even is anything resembling a single objective truth on complex issues is a lot of my fucking problem with liberalism right there.

I'm not trying to say that some people's ideas should matter more than others. I am saying that that is already true in the structure of the world and that we have a responsibility to acknowledge and account for that.

[jimbokun]

This way of thinking is literally killing people.

In the US, among both working class Republicans and working class black communities, many people decided not to get a Covid vaccine because they do not trust the group of people telling them to get it.

The identity of the people telling them to get the vaccine is completely irrelevant. The reason to get the vaccine is the results of the clinical trials demonstrating that it was safe and effective.

Do those groups have good reason to not trust the kinds of people representing "science"? I am sure they do.

But they do not have to trust those people as individuals. They just need to trust the outcomes of the trials.