[zozin]

Increased energy density is great, but what’s the point of carrying an extra 600-1,000lb of batteries around when for the vast majority of people the extra range is only used in a handful of cases per year, if that.

Lots of consumers seem to be waiting on the sidelines until some magic range number is achieved (500? 1,000?), when in practice that range is unneeded on a daily basis. It’s like demanding a all-day battery from a laptop, only to leave it plugged in all day long anyway.

[noahtallen]

I don’t think it’s quite that. Gas cars have a typical range near 400mi. From what I can tell, most electric cars are under that, or just very recently getting to that number. (So I guess we can say range is solved now!)

Having recently explored it, electric cars are very nearly but not quite ahead in a few areas:

- Electric or plug-in hybrids are still typically a more expensive option. For example, the RAV4 has a plug-in hybrid option, or just hybrid, but both of those are a fair amount more expensive than competing compact SUVs.

- Infrastructure. Electric cars become practical when you can charge overnight at home. For many people, the cost of getting electric service retrofitted is too expensive, and many others are renters with no way to charge at home. Beyond that, charging on roadtrips is very hit or miss unless you have a Tesla. (And as a side note, with poor charging infra, longer range becomes more important.)

Of course, both of these problems are close to being solved, but they add extra considerations that people don’t have to make with gas cars.

Anyways, main point: I think consumers are waiting for other reasons than 500mi range.

[andrewia]

Increased density could help with packaging. You can already see this with the Lucid Air, which has a very deep frunk and trunk, as well as deep footwells. The Air also has full-size interior volume but with the vehicle length of a mid-size car. Better packaging enables sedan-shaped EVs, and also can enable crossover EVs with better ride height (since their skateboard can be thinner).

This could also enable removable battery modules. I could envision an EV with 150-200 mile range for everyday driving, with additional batteries kept at home connected to energy storage (like a Tesla Powerwall). When you want to go on a road trip, you just disconnect the modules and install them in the lower part of the frunk and trunk. The packs could also have other uses - you could load one into an electric motorcycle (much like the Zero Motorcycle already can). If you're desperate for a charge but don't have a plug near a parking spot, you can lug a module to a wall outlet. And we've seen how additional batteries enables additional current (and therefore performance), so EV sports cars could be lower-horsepower "daily drivers" until you install the batteries for a weekend drive.

[masklinn]

> when in practice that range is unneeded on a daily basis

Which is great if you have space for and can afford two cars.

But if you don’t and / or can’t, you need your one car to handle both your daily driving needs and the odd long range trip.

> It’s like demanding a all-day battery from a laptop, only to leave it plugged in all day long anyway.

Which i’m reasonably sure is what’s happening to many MBPs, but if you do actually meed the odd all-day battery… then you do need it.

[rcMgD2BwE72F]

I understand that most people just wait for their peers to switch to EV first and they'll only make the move when >X persons around them place an order and confirm from experience that EVs are the way to go. They avoid taking risk with what appears to be "unproven" technology that happens to cost a significant % of their household's wealth.

I've never owned (or needed a car) so I can't speak for myself, but my family and friends are 100% convinced that BEV are the future, and they also have the means to buy one now. They just tell themselves that they must wait for their neighbors to buy an EV first and hear first hand that charging is indeed not an issue before making the switch. It's a chicken or the egg problem and in the meantime, they're fine with purchasing plugins (even though they know it's a worse choice and that the plugin will depreciate faster)

Most people are simply risk-averse and they are enough early-adopters queuing for a Tesla delivery. So EV adoption can't go faster than Tesla can build factories and pump out cars. The early majority will follow suit.

[wizzwizz4]

If you're using a car for everyday short trips then, unless you have some kind of mobility impediment, you're doing it wrong.

[nomel]

Or, you perception is only specific to your limited experience.

My "every day" short trips (I claim that's < 100 miles total) are, going to work (70 miles round trip), going out on the weekends (almost always < 60 miles, to get to the beach) going to the grocery store (5 miles, with ~40lbs of groceries, with steep hills).

Maybe this is a US thing, but I definitely can't do any of these things with my feet, in a reasonable amount of time. I also can't afford to live anywhere closer to work (getting within biking distance means a few million dollars, for a home, or my three bedroom mortgage for a single bedroom apartment), or next to a grocery store (there's no housing available there).

But, I can easily do all of this within the range of my 100 mile electric car, that I purchased for $8k.

Is it affordable to live close to work, in other countries? In the US, if you're in tech, you're paying a significant portion of your income to be within biking distance.

[wizzwizz4]

> Is it affordable to live close to work, in other countries?

Not really. Before COVID, I generally took a 15 minute run to the train station, then took the train for about hour, then took another 20 minute run to get to work at the local tech centre. If I had a fold-up bike, it would be a lot quicker, because there are bicycle paths. (In theory, I could've worked remotely, but it was easier to get stuff done with access to a whiteboard and the person in charge of systems architecture. I could also take a regular bike on the train, but if everyone did it that would be a mess, so I don't.)

I do stand by my “doing it wrong” remark – though I'll have to apply it to whoever designed your cities. That situation is awful (though good on you for using an electric car).

[vel0city]

What kind of distance did you cover with your hour and a half commute? Also, what would your commute time have been if you had driven?

[throwaway27727]

What electric car in the US costs 8k? I assume that is used, but even then that sounds cheap.

[nomel]

You can find used Nissan Leaf and used Fiat 500e for pretty cheap. I bought mine midway through this used car price increase (about one year ago). A year before, they were selling for $5k. People don't seem to want the low mileage cars, even though most people would be fine with a low mileage car, as a secondary vehicle.

[p_j_w]

Maybe not in today's market, but you could probably get a used Leaf for around that a couple of years ago.

[jackson1442]

Are you in the US? Because even if I wanted to walk/bus to the grocery store near me it would take almost 4x longer one-way (46 mins vs 12) and I’d also be subject to the maybe-once-per-hour schedule of the bus.

[wizzwizz4]

I'm not in the US, but I didn't know the US was quite that bad. Can't you cycle?

[aidenn0]

99% of the US by land area is that bad; somewhat less so by population since NYC is navigable without a car and that's 8M people alone. There are approximately zero cities outside of New York where public transit is viable competition to cars.

Weather permitting, cycling is doable in some places. Most places however have narrow (or no!) bike lanes with automotive surface traffic moving at least 48kph and drivers having zero clue how to drive around bicycles. In urban areas there are usually cars parked directly next to the bike lane, with drivers opening doors into the bike lane. Many commercial delivery vehicles park in bike lanes as well; in the places where that is forbidden (fewer than you would think) the laws against it are typically unenforced.

[edit]

To give you an idea, I drive my 13y.o. daughter to school. It takes about 10 minutes. This is ridiculous. However the other options are:

- Walk (no place to leave bike near bus stop) a bit over 2km to nearest bus stop, take 45 minute bus ride.

- Bicycle along a road with 72kph speed limit; bike lane is not separated and is as narrow as 20cm(!!) in places with cars that are alternating between going above the speed-limit and stopped (with cars turning across traffic in gaps while stopped; I have personally witnessed 2 car vs car collisions where the two cars couldn't see each other due to stopped lane of traffic between them. A bicyclist would have been killed. Most bicyclists (including me) avoid this road, though enough travel on it for one to get hit by a car roughly annually (only 1 fatality in the past 3 years that I can remember though).

- Bicycle an extra 3km (6 vs 9), crossing the above death-trap road, but not cycling along it. This still travels along a road with a 72kph speed limit, but traffic is much lighter and shoulders are much wider. There is one intersection that is a bit nuts, but can be traversed by hopping off the bicycle and using the cross-walks.

[com2kid]

> There are approximately zero cities outside of New York where public transit is viable competition to cars.

Significant swaths of Boston.

But, except for that, completely agree.

:)

A lot of people outside the US don't realize how new all our city layouts are. The majority of American cities were built out after cars came onto the scene. Did the cities exist before cars? Sure, but except for a few east coast cities, only with population numbers that could best be described as laughable.

[vel0city]

Does the busses in your area have bike racks? The public transit in my city is pretty bike friendly. The busses all have bike racks in the front and the trains have bike hooks in the flat entrance train cars.

[jackson1442]

My city's actually been cutting busses to replace them with their own uber-like service. It's cheap, at only $0.75/person/ride (and no tips, drivers are salaried!), but the hours are the same as busses (so about 7a-7p) and wait times are generally > 20min.

[p_j_w]

>There are approximately zero cities outside of New York where public transit is viable competition to cars.

It's viable in San Francisco proper as well.

[noahtallen]

Cycling is normally very dangerous in North America (outside of certain urban cores and small towns), due to the road design and zoning laws. This channel is helpful in understanding the problem: https://youtu.be/M8F5hXqS-Ac

[jackson1442]

Most driving outside of hyper-local destinations (this includes going to my _preferred_ grocery store, versus Walmart) requires driving on the Interstate highway which is probably one of the most dangerous kinds of roads to cycle on with an average speed limit of 70mph (~112 km/h), inconsistent shoulders for cycling, and generally more aggressive drivers.

[travisporter]

Oh yea - I actually got yelled by a truck in Houston for biking on a side street on a Saturday morning

[motoxpro]

Most places in the US don't have cycling infrastructure. i.e. bike lanes or shoulders.

[renewiltord]

Haha I drive my car to my San Francisco office for a quick 10 min ride. It isn’t that I can’t bike there (I have a carbon fiber aero bike with zipps and dura-ace throughout). I often take my motorcycle there because it cuts the commute to 6 min.

It’s just that I’m eager to not spend time not on the prime activity.