[mwattsun]

That's not really Zen though. Zen is expanding your awareness of the present moment to experience it without interpretation, including emotional interpretation, to experience it as it is. Zen is freedom from the constant need to assign meaning and experience feelings about where you are right now. Zen is the calm eye of the storm without attachments to thoughts or emotions, especially those that we use to identify who we are. Zen is a hot cup of tea and the sounds of birds singing.

[lemmsjid]

I might be missing a nuance in what you're saying, because it seems like the way you are describing Zen is indeed similar to what Tarkovsky is describing above. Specifically, he says, "If you look for a meaning, you'll miss everything that happens. Thinking during a film interferes with your experience of it." As you describe Zen, it is "freedom from the constant need to assign meaning and experience feelings about where you are right now". I.e., not interrupting your experience of Tarkovsky's films by attempting to assign meaning.

[mwattsun]

Andrei Tarkovsky:

> If you look for a meaning, you'll miss everything that happens

> What matters to me is that they arouse feelings, any feelings you like, based on whatever your inner response might be.

That's great and I like introspective and symbolic films, but arousing feelings is not Zen. Tarkovsky wants us to think less and feel more, which I think characterizes most art. Some people might say something like "I feel good about cats but I feel bad about dogs" (as an example) or "there is a special melancholy in the dawn fog." This is all well and good and what it is to be human, but feelings are subjective and about personal identity and experience. There is nothing inherently good or bad about one or the other when you compare cats and dogs. That's about you, not about cats or dogs. Likewise, there is nothing melancholic about morning fog. Other people might feel intense joy at they way it burns off as the sun rises. Others might feel sad and go back to sleep.

Zen not only gets under the thinking, it gets under the feeling, to experience reality as it is without judgement or processing. Zen is seeing things clearly and calmly. It's clarity without the filter of thoughts and feelings.

I can't know how other people experience the world so I can't tell if my way of achieving clarity is the way other people, such as a Japanese Zen master, experience clarity. Tarkovsky may have achieved his clarity through emotional intelligence and that's what he puts in his films. I'm grateful to have found a way that works for me. It's really no concern of mine that other's have a different way. There is no one way but that's an opinion of mine. When in doubt, I meditate and wait for the clarity to return.

[s1artibartfast]

>Zen is seeing things clearly and calmly. It's clarity without the filter of thoughts and feelings.

Based on my my understanding from practitioners, zen is not characterized by absence or elimination of feelings, but not letting them control your behavior or your thoughts. You don't have to feel like a robot, but you might choose to react like one. There are things in life that are beautiful, happy, and sad. The point is not to deny this, but experience it without forming Attachments and reactions. To this end, I have heard of zen masters that can go from laughter to tears simply by shifting their focus. Similarly, there is a rich tradition of very evocative zen Buddhist art.

The film maker may differ in that he wants to inspire a reaction, or maybe not.

[mwattsun]

Elimination of feelings is not a desired outcome and if extreme can be classed a disorder such and depression, dissociative disorder or psychopathy.

I found Cognitive Behavioral Therapy (CBT) and Dialectic Behavior Therapy (DBT and Wise Mind) very helpful in dealing with troublesome emotions and then Zen which, as you say, is about not letting them control your behavior or your thoughts but calmly observing them come and go. This is also part of ancient Greek and Roman philosophies such as Stoicism and part of what ancients like Marcus Aurelius and Epictetus were getting at.

https://www.brainyquote.com/authors/marcus-aurelius-quotes

https://www.brainyquote.com/authors/epictetus-quotes

[maroonblazer]

Feelings, for the most part, are intertwined with thoughts. This is what makes CBT and its ilk so valuable. For example...

I'm feeling panicked because I've been given a new manager. I think the new manager may not see the value of my role. Turns out, the new manager is impressed with my experience and has heard good things about me from others. They believe me to be an important asset to the team. My feeling of panic evaporates.

I'd venture that at least 80% of what accounts for 'stress' in the 21st century can be chalked up to the stories we tell ourselves.

[mwattsun]

In CBT worksheet terms it would look like this:

Automatic Thought Record

When you notice your mood getting worse, ask yourself, "What's going through my mind right now?" As soon as possible, fill in the table below.

Situation:

I've been given a new manager

Automatic Thoughts:

I think the new manager may not see the value of my role

Emotions:

I'm feeling panicked

Adaptive Response:

What thinking styles did you engage in? Disqualifying the Positive, Jumping to Conclusions, Emotional Reasoning, Magnification. See OLDJEMMAPS.

Outcome:

Turns out, the new manager is impressed with my experience and has heard good things about me from others. They believe me to be an important asset to the team

OLDJEMMAPS acronym:

Over-generalization: Make a comprehensive, negative conclusion that is beyond the current situation.

"I failed the cognitive psychology exam. I'm not working with a psychotherapist."

Labeling and Mis-labeling: The extreme form of overgeneralization. Use fixed, comprehensive, and emotional language to label yourself or others.

"I am an idiot." "He is a bad guy."

Disqualifying the Positive: Unreasonably believe that positive experiences, behaviors or qualities do not count.

"I did a good job on that project, but it doesn't show that I am capable, it's just a fluke."

Jumping to Conclusions: Making a conclusion before having all the evidence.

"I see a cloud on the horizon. I'm bringing my umbrella because it's going to rain"

Mind-reading: in the absence of evidence, thinking that other people's reactions to you must be negative.

"He must think I can't do the job on this subject."

Emotional Reasoning: Draw conclusions from your own feelings, because what I think is what the facts are.

"I think I am like an idiot, so I must be an idiot."

Mental Filter (selective summary, partial generalization). Only pay attention to a certain negative detail, without seeing the whole picture.

"Because of the low scores in several items in my clinical internship evaluation, my clinical internship is over"

Magnification/Minimization: enlarge/reduce. When evaluating oneself, others, or a situation, unreasonably exaggerate the negative aspects and narrow the positive aspects.

"Getting a moderate evaluation shows how incapable I am. Getting a good score does not show that I am smart."

All or Nothing Thinking: (also known as black or white thinking). You can only look at two extremes, but you cannot see a continuum band.

"If I can't do everything well, I'm an incompetent person."

Personalization: Others treat you badly because you have problems without considering other possibilities.

"That colleague is very unkind to me. I must have offended her in some way."

Should and Must statements: There is a precise, fixed expectation of one's own or other people's behavior, and if the behavior does not meet the expectation, it is too serious or bad.

"That person should have said hello to me. They didn't so they must be irritated with me"