[orangebeet]

About 7 days after the first mRNA shot, I got really bad chest pain. I went to see my doctor and my EKG was okay. It only got worse from there, and eventually I was sent to the hospital and diagnosed with pericarditis.

The pericarditis wasn't registered as "caused by the vaccine", since it took three weeks before I finally got a hospital appointment, and by then it was too late to prove. I'm 31 years old and relatively fit and I've never had any issues until 7 days after the vaccine. So when this wasn't attributed to the vaccine, here in Denmark, what percentage of issues will be attributed to the vaccine in a country with a greater population density, like India?

As a consequence of this, I find the "~23 in a million" get heart complications highly questionable.

[dham]

I've seen 2 people on my Facebook feed have issues. One is pretty big in the skydiving community. He had a Moderna booster and it all went downhill. He's doing better now. He initially thought the vaccine was to blame but then it seemed that there were issues for a while but it kind of put him over the edge. Again all anecdotal.

[UnFleshedOne]

It would make sense that pre-existing heart issues would be worsened by vaccine that has heart complications. Similar to how covid itself is much more deadly with pre-existing comorbidities while being mostly harmless for healthy young people.

[jjeaff]

Imagine having preexisting heart conditions and getting COVID, which is known to have much higher rates of heart complications.

[basq]

Same. It's got so bad it keeps me awake at night, and prevents me from taking naps. Heart thumping harder than when I go for a run, but just while laying down on the couch.

I've noticed my omega3 supplements help a lot though, as in, almost instantly. It comes back if I forget to take them for a few days too, so that's a possible cause as well. Just sucks to have that in the back of my mind.

[asfarley]

Damn, when you put it that way about thumping heart while laying down, I am now starting to worry.

[megous]

age 18-24, 537 per million

age 12-17, 377 per million

[jabej]

This should be compared to death rates from COVID.

[jjeaff]

Why would you compare heart complications to deaths?

Compare heart complications to heart complications. They are higher in COVID than the vaccine for any age group.

[mostertoaster]

How come?

There is a higher risk to dying from a covid infection (at least with delta) than from the vaccine as far as we can see in the short term.

But there is still a risk from the vaccine.

If there was a train hurtling down the tracks about to kill five people many think they’d be able to push the switch to make it only kill one different person, yet I wouldn’t be able to do even that let alone the more intense situations from that scenario.

Thinking of people as numbers is what allows for someone to think it is ok to coerce people into getting vaccines.

[tomjakubowski]

A person susceptible to heart conditions from the vaccine would probably also be susceptible to the same (or worse) from the disease itself. Your hapless groups of people on the tracks, the five and the one, aren't independent. It may well be flipping the switch only saves lives.

[orangebeet]

I am absolutely pro vaccine despite my heart problems, but this kind of argumentation basically means that regardless of how bad the vaccine is, it gets away free because "covid would probably be worse".

[gitgrump]

That's kind of how relative risk works. I mean, no COVID would be nice, but we left that world behind two years ago. What do you mean "get away free" anyway? There's no morality here. The vaccine didn't "do" anything wrong. It is either efficacious or it isn't, and the side effects are either worth it or they aren't. From what we can tell, the risk of heart problems from the vaccine is so much lower than from COVID. What more would you like people to do?

[gregoryl]

Covid is dramatically, consistently and provably worse.

Its not even in the same ballpark.

[pcwalton]

The trolley problem analogy breaks down when you consider that Covid is an infectious disease. Getting vaccinated doesn't just protect you; it protects everyone else you might have spread the disease to.

[rastignack]

The effectiveness against infection is limited, and omicron mainly spreads in vaccinated populations in Denmark, Island and the UK

[pcwalton]

Both technically true statements (though I think you mean Iceland), but presented in a completely misleading way. Yes, breakthrough infections exist and nothing is 100%; you should still get the vaccine, obviously. Yes, when the population is highly vaccinated, a lot of infections will be in the vaccinated; that's just how denominators work.

[gregoryl]

I'll bite. Why is it not ok to coerce people into getting vaccines? Is it specifically the covid vaccine you object to, or all vaccines?

[mostertoaster]

Well what if there is a side effect that kills them? What if that person already got covid and was barely affected by it?

Forcing them to get the vaccine is crazy, especially when it doesn’t behave how the other vaccines do, and vaccinated people are both getting it and spreading it, albeit with far less severe symptoms than the unvaccinated person on average.

I think vaccines are amazing, these new covid ones, look to be reducing the symptoms of covid.

The idea of forcing it on folks when even vaccinated people are spreading it is absurd.

[thrashh]

I wouldn’t be surprised if vaccinated people go out more because they feel safer. I went on a cross-US road trip right after I got my vaccine and now I’ve been to 4 different countries.

I wouldn’t have done any of that if I wasn’t vaccinated.

[robbedpeter]

Medical advice should be provided by doctors, not politicians, activists, or bureacrats. Doctors have specific ethical training and guidelines by which they're qualified to make judgments about safety and relative risks for individuals.

Consider that polio vaccination was never framed and exploited by political parties playing despicable red vs blue games with the public. The results, driven by information campaigns devoid of partisan politics, were a nearly universal state of vaccination, driving the disease more or less extinct. Trust in doctors and medical institutions was high and relatively untrammeled by partisan games.

The second that coronavirus vaccination became a political shibboleth for team blue, the current state of vaccine resistance became inevitable. Both parties are responsible for a lot of unnecessary death and suffering because of their willingness to never let a good crisis go to waste.

Throw in the general decline and corruption of institutions, lack of trust in public health agencies and even doctors in general, and you've got a mess of hyperpartisan unvaccinated conservative folks being shrieked at by the clueless but vaccinated team blue, and nobody credible or trusted able to bring the situation back to something resembling sanity.

[RedBeetDeadpool]

Just out of curiosity, would your bad chest pain get registered as some part of the data collected by the CDC?

[jjeaff]

In the US, it would be required that the doctors report it to the VAERS database. There is no need to prove any causal relationship, since that is basically impossible anyway. It doesn't really make sense that Denmark would require you to prove it either, since the data gathering is really the only tool to get evidence of causation.

[merpnderp]

"In the US, it would be required that the doctors report it to the VAERS database."

From my personal experience and what I've heard online, that seems like wishful thinking. I know two people who had bad heart reactions to the vaccine whose doctors insisted it couldn't be from the vaccine and wouldn't speak of it being connected. And it seems like I've heard similar stories online dozens of times. My guess is the VAERS data dramatically undercounts incidents.

The Pfizer whistleblower paper claimed that even in the early days of the vaccine, internal Pfizer incidents weren't even reported. And given how hostile the entire internet is to discussions of vaccine safety, the idea that people are extremely reluctant to report vaccine injuries seems believable.

[jjeaff]

Anyone can report to VAERS. Evidenced by the reports if you care to peruse them. There are a lot of gems like, "he got the vax and then just died" and "my baby died a few weeks after I received the vaccine" and my favorite, "my cat died a few days after I got vaccinated". Considering the infinitely higher level of publicity that VAERS has received for this vaccine vs all previous vaccines, my guess is that it is over-reported.

[xyzzy21]

Legally it IS still required that they report. Doctors and hospitals are simply ignoring the law.

[merpnderp]

But this would explain why the US has lower rates of myocarditis vaccine injuries reported than the big Israel study or similar studies in Europe.

[orangebeet]

In Denmark you need to have objective evidence of inflammation to register it into the VAERS database.

[decebalus1]

VAERS is an American system. What's the Danish equivalent?