[Wowfunhappy]

To be fair to the other side of the argument, I think people are mostly upset about the iPhone. There's an implicit fear (which I don't agree with!) that if Apple is so insistent on keeping the iPhone locked down, that must be their ultimate goal for their other platforms as well.

I think if Apple was to add a developer mode to the iPhone, 99% of people would actually shut up.

[marcan_42]

People seem to forget that the iPhone is 15 years old, and Macs are still an open platform. It hasn't happened yet, but somehow it's always "going to happen"...

[Wowfunhappy]

I 100% agree with you and have argued the same point! I expect to get an Apple Silicon Mac at some point and to put Asahi Linux on it. :)

I just don't think that the counterargument is completely spurious. Craig Federighi taking the stand in court and saying that Mac security is at a place they "don’t find acceptable" doesn't exactly make me feel all warm and fuzzy about Apple's future plans. And so if someone says they don't want to buy an M1 Mac, even if it's open today, because they see the iPhone as indicative of the direction Apple is going, I think that's fair, even if I disagree about Apple's intentions.

By contrast, if Apple added a way to unlock the bootloader on iPhones tomorrow, this argument would immediately evaporate. :)

[marcan_42]

Well, there's always the part where trying to lock down existing devices would run afoul of various consumer protection and warranty laws. Sony already got sued and lost for locking down the PS3, and this would be a much higher profile case, especially once Asahi Linux gets to the point where we have a significant user base...

Apple could certainly choose to lock down future Mac iterations (though I don't think they will), but I think fears that they might retroactively lock down existing Macs are just unfounded and ignore the realities of the situation.

Of course people are free to buy or not buy machines for whatever reason; that's why I want everyone to be informed about the details. My beef is with those who disagree with this stance, and think people shouldn't buy these machines period because Apple is evil and those who buy their devices sheep, and anyone who thinks otherwise is mistaken, and there is no room for having different priorities when choosing hardware because Freedom™ is the only priority that matters. For whatever definition of Freedom™ they feel like using that day.

[smoldesu]

I think the irony would be less dramatic if the free software wasn't running on hardware constructed with slave labor. Put your eggs in whichever baskets you choose, but people's worries about the conflict of interests here is fully justified. Apple and open source are not friends, and while they'll be happy to tip their hat every once in a while (much like Microsoft's platitudes with WSL and GitHub), their ultimate goal is to stomp you out and expand control. Once again, nobody here has much interest in stopping you here; just don't be surprised when your blood, sweat and tears ultimately end up being used to grease the gears of their production line. We're talking about a trillion-dollar company that doesn't release their own device drivers or schematics; it's ridiculous that we even need to finish the job for them in the first place. It's hard to see this work as "noble" in the same way other free software projects are, at least to me.

[marcan_42]

sigh here we go again.

> I think the irony would be less dramatic if the free software wasn't running on hardware constructed with slave labor.

Why do you feel the need to direct criticism of Apple's business practices at me? I do not work for Apple.

> but people's worries about the conflict of interests here is fully justified.

Then don't buy the machines and move on with your life?

> Apple and open source are not friends

Neither are they enemies. The world isn't binary. I do not exclude from my life everything that is related to everyone who isn't explicitly my friend, do you?

> their ultimate goal is to stomp you out and expand control

Ah yes, stomp us out by... building machines we can use to run our own OS? They could've just not done that and we wouldn't exist.

> just don't be surprised when your blood, sweat and tears ultimately end up being used to grease the gears of their production line.

So which is, are they going to stomp us out or are they going to embrace the extra business we bring? You can't have it both ways, you know.

> We're talking about a trillion-dollar company that doesn't release their own device drivers or schematics; it's ridiculous that we even need to finish the job for them in the first place.

I find it fun finishing the job for them. This is exactly the kind of project I enjoy doing. If you don't, then choose a different free software to contribute to.

> It's hard to see this work as "noble" in the same way other free software projects are, at least to me.

So our project is inherently morally inferior to others because you simultaneously think Apple should've done the work for us and Apple are our enemies. ????????

Seriously, this makes no sense. You know Linux itself started out as a hobby OS with no corporate backing and tons of other drivers are reverse engineered, right? Do you also think Nouveau isn't noble? What about LineageOS? What about XBMC/Kodi when it started? Freedreno, Panfrost, and friends? All of those projects are or were about bringing free software to devices designed and manufactured by giant corporations without any support.

Heck, I got sued by a multinational for bringing Linux back to the PS3, and I still don't regret it. That work got upstreamed, by the way.

[Wowfunhappy]

> Well, there's always the part where trying to lock down existing devices would run afoul of various consumer protection and warranty laws. Sony already got sued and lost for locking down the PS3, and this would be a much higher profile case, especially once Asahi Linux gets to the point where we have a significant user base...

That's a really good point I hadn't thought of!