[zzt123]

We’re talking about learning basic stuff, not top tier postgrad stuff. The article is about the majority of American adults being unable to read prose at a sixth grade level - that is, years before SF suggests teaching algebra.

That is absolutely a massively distributed pedagogical failure of outstanding degree. Unless the average adult is so mentally disabled that acceptable-or-above teaching should result in this outcome.

[josephg]

Both exist. Teachers make a huge difference, and there is absolutely a range of ability amongst students. (For dozens of reasons)

When I was teaching programming I realised that by best students were going to become excellent programmers regardless of what I did. Like, if I literally didn’t teach them anything and left them to just goof around quietly on their computer on their own, they’ll still end up great. Teaching still matters. (Maybe more). But the difference is 10/10 meets expectations and 20/10 exceeds them.

Weaker students essentially could not learn the material without both of us working really hard to get them over the line. For the weaker students, the default is failure unless a lot of things go right.

And so as a classroom teacher you have the devil’s choice - who do you pay attention to? In a large classroom some people inevitably get ignored or fall through the cracks. And in school the problem compounds year on year. Learning issues tend to take a lot longer to fix than they do to create. Didn’t learn calculus last year with everyone else because your home life is a mess? Now the only way you’ll learn it is with 1-on-1 time with an overworked teacher. That didn’t happen? Now you have panic attacks when you think about it. And home life is probably still a mess.

I’m not apologising or excusing anything. But it is a hard problem. I don’t believe the same philosophy of teaching which created this problem is equal to the task of solving it.

[dataviz1000]

You taught in a classroom and, I assume, you have taught people you have hired at a company in your position as a manager or senior engineer. There is a very significant difference in accountability. If in the classroom, a student falls through the cracks, it isn't your fault and you are not held accountable. Whereas, if you are leading a software engineering team, you hired the best qualified applicants available at the time, you are under pressure to be the best in the world and those people you hired will always fall short of that, the accountability to get those employees up to speed falls on you -- you can't say they are disabled, fire them, and hire new employees since they were the best qualified applicants available when you hired them, you can't do better. If your team fails, it isn't because the people you choose to hire, it is because of you. It is impossible to devise a system where teachers are held accountable for student performance in a classroom. I wouldn't even start to suggest that it is something we should do. What could go wrong?

[whatshisface]

I don't know which side is right but I'm detecting a distinct lack of objective criteria or empirical evidence in this debate. What's a sixth grade reading level? Are the majority of US adults capable of that? How do you teach someone to read at a sixth grade level - other than simply having them practice? Can someone reach a sixth grade level only to later fall below it as their skills atrophy by voluntary disuse though adulthood?

[thelettere]

"The problem of educating the educators is a problem which the democrat forgets in his enthusiasm for educating the pupils."

Except now we don't even have the latter. We've just accepted that the least qualified individuals in our society are charged with doing what is arguably the most important work outside of governing, and with a laughable wrong headed course of training.

[travisjungroth]

I'm not here to defend the American education system. It's just a big jump from "this issue is so widespread only a failure of teaching can explain it all" to "learning disabilities don't exist".

[zzt123]

Learning disabilities do exist. But wrt a 6th grade reading level, it would be shocking if learning disabilities were anything less than a severe minority of the cause. That’s not to say, however, that improper teaching in response to learning disabilities are necessarily a minority of the cause, just that the disabilities cannot possibly be so severe that we should accept this outcome.

I probably worded it very vaguely.