[mthoms]

Exactly. Annexing parts of Ukraine, and then complaining that Ukraine joining a defensive alliance is a threat is beyond absurd.

If they didn't want Ukraine to join NATO, maybe Russia shouldn't have gone out and demonstrated to the entire world precisely why Ukraine needs NATO protection.

[vanusa]

Both this comment and its parent have the basic chronology backwards, specifically in regard to Ukraine. Whose moves to join NATO began in 2008 -- a full six years before the annexation of Crimea.

Also, especially since the Kosovo intervention it seems moot to refer to NATO as a "defensive alliance". It is an instrument through which its leading partners project power throughout the region, and the Russians know that.

[mthoms]

I'm aware of the timeline but it has no bearing on the point I actually made. Invading Ukraine only makes the need to join NATO more pressing for the Ukrainians not less.

[vanusa]

Your point is perfectly sound. What matters at this juncture is what Putin does - and why he can tap into a substantial component of support of his people to take military action to address decades of distrustful feelings towards the West, should he choose to do so.

Recall that is the secret to his genius: "To become the leader that my people want me to be."

[LatteLazy]

Exactly.

Since 1989, NATO has been an alliance in search of an enemy. That's why it was involved in almost no conflicts before then. But since then it's been all over Eastern Europe, Iraq multiple times, Africa, Afghanistan etc.

I don't like Putin. But his position is a very predictable (even forced) response to (mainly US and UK) NATO activities.

[Mountain_Skies]

'Would, should, could' isn't useful in Realpolitik. We're going to 'would, should, could' right into the very situation we claim to want to avoid. Gorbachev is correct, we're arrogant, believing we can make the world conform to our desires simply because they are our desires. It doesn't matter if Russia is right or wrong. It matters what Russia is going to do, both on their own and in reaction to what we do. The Ukraine mess is avoidable but we're arrogant and think we are right therefore reality will bend to our desire. This is extremely dangerous thinking, especially when dealing with nuclear powers.