[theonething]

> it is very hard to unsee the cruel world and fool yourself with religion

I'm Christian and it is seeing this cruel world that confirms for me the existence of human sin and the need for a solution.

Science is wonderful and explains a lot of things and has resulted in a lot of good, but so far for me, it doesn't not explain adequately why this world is so cruel and what to do about. And it doesn't speak to morality either. Morality I'd argue is pretty important for a happy and functioning society.

[stjohnswarts]

Morality is orthogonal to religion.

[theonething]

You may believe that relative morality is orthogonal to religion, but by definition, absolute morality is not possible without a point of reference outside of us, i.e. religion.

And I would say relative morality is no morality at all. Pedophilia, murder, rape, etc is absolutely wrong. I don't care what you compare it to.

And I would assert morality is orthogonal to science.