[ckdarby]

Why do I need the agreemnent? I would have figured that is what is being offered here, no? Like AWS Globlal Beaming Inc would have done all that and I would just be beaming data under their existing agreement and just complying, no?

[techdragon]

In my experience the communications related paperwork is a prerequisite for the paperwork to actually launch your satellite. Every single satellite (or constellation of identical satellites) has to have its own “internationally coordinated” set of paperwork, some of which may block you getting the information Amazon needs (depending on the regulatory environment of your country). The radio regulations are a real headache and from my own experience laser based communications can’t get here soon enough.

[tanzann]

> from my own experience laser based communications can’t get here soon enough

Thanks for details. What do you mean, would you elaborate please?

[scoopertrooper]

Communicating with satellites using lasers, rather than electromagnetic rays. It'd bypass having to license radio spectrum.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laser_communication_in_space

[techdragon]

For instance in Australia, I’ll have to register with the ACMA (our FCC) and they require information about what kind of radio your using, where your ground stations are, and it actually creates a bit of a catch 22 here in Australia for non-experts. You need the ACMA documents to get the launch permits to get orbit information to get coordinated with Amazon Ground Station to get documents about your ground stations for the ACMA.

It’s definitely resolvable but it’s non-trivial and requires dealing with people who are familiar with the intricacies of a specific government bureaucracy. There’s no equivalent of “a Wi-Fi module” for space and despite the massive improvement in electronic systems that can survive in space for a while, you’re going to run into a brick wall of red tape the moment you want to communicate with your space craft due to how complicated the regulatory environment is in space for small operators. A great example is the fees involved, for a first time applicant it’s AU$135,000 to file the paperwork (plus extra if it’s not perfect and they have to work with you to actually get it accepted) to use a radio in space, that’s $135000 to say “I’m going to use standard s band communications at x number of watts power using a global commercial provider like Amazon and have nothing custom at all” and it’s sufficiently uncommon that there’s not even a form to fill in so you end up having to talk to people they recommend as consultants just to find out how to format the documents you’re sending them.

All of this is complicated gone for laser communication systems. If you have a ground station with appropriate airspace clearance (cause firing lasers into airplane cockpits is bad) which is actually pretty easy to coordinate as the air traffic regulations are used to putting in place all sort of “don’t go here during x/y hours” type notices and it’s not a big deal to them why… all the paperwork is done at that point other than your launch permits. No radio regulation, no ACMA rip off fees, no hassle at all. It’s just very difficult to get laser communication equipment at the moment as it’s still the bleeding edge. It’s rapidly growing as commercial providers bring things to market but it’s still getting through the chicken-or-egg phase of you don’t have demand for ground stations without satellites and satellites can’t use them without ground stations. But it’s slowly improving.

However for a long time cost will be prohibitive for laser comma. Despite the elimination of all the fees and bureaucracy it’s still much cheaper to develop your small satellite with off the shelf Software defined radio hardware which can cost significantly less money during development and prototyping phases because the cost of commercial “off the shelf” parts for space hardware is insane.

I’m looking forward to SpaceX getting starship flying because it’s going to utterly destroy this state of affairs by sheer market forces. The first year of starship flying commercial payloads once a week, will be able to put more hardware into orbit than we have in the entire history up to this point, including falcon 9 and the copious launches of Starlink satellites. When it costs more to file the paperwork than it does to build and launch your entire cubesat, ($100000 is very generous budget for a 3-6 month cubesat if SpaceX live up to their projected costs per kilogram to orbit… minus regulation costs) your going to see people push for the necessary regulatory changes to get us an equivalent to “Wi-Fi” but in space, an anyone can use this under x watts frequency allocation that will just open the floodgates to innovative small satellite designs and projects.

[ok_dad]

Could SpaceX say, “if you put your satellite up with us, you can use this nifty, cheap module to link up with Starlink satellites in orbit, then we’ll forward your data directly to your terminal; no need for any radio permitting.”

?

[techdragon]

Nope. You as satellite operator are responsible for requisite communications permits as a pre-requisite for your launch permits, including Earth to Space, Space to Earth, and Space to Space, all of which are separate item and while you can put any combination of multiple ones of them in a single application to the regulatory body, you end up with separate permits for each. In that scenario You would have to get a bunch of information from spaceX in order to prove to the regulator that your not going to interfere with the operation of the entire starlink constellation (spaceX providing the hardware is not sufficient proof). What SpaceX could do is provide a module that connected to the StarLink inter-satellite laser links they are planning to add in between the StarLink satellites.

Like I said, there’s really only two scenarios to change this. One is that we get regulatory change, which the ITU (the people globally in charge of radio regulation between countries, the FCC and ACMA coordinates their respective countries compliance with ITU regulations in order to meet extremely well established treaty obligations, the ITU is over a hundred years old) rejected the need for in their last meeting, based on evidence gathered in the years before that, essentially this entire scenario will break down when Starship slashes launch costs and they will either rule with an iron fist or bend to allow ISM band style approaches in space. The other is if laser communication systems come down significantly in price, the current cheapest I’ve seen is a one way (space to ground) link for “$10000 USD” list price and that wasn’t available ready to order and had no flight heritage so I’d be unsurprised if the price became $25k USD when it finally had some flight heritage. (One of the nasty secrets of aerospace engineering is how much Commercial “Off The Shelf” hardware is actually just built to order based on an approved design) and you need two way units to actually become cheap enough they aren’t more expensive than a radio permit is, which they aren’t at the moment since most people would have to both get the satellite hardware in the order of a hundred thousand or more, and also build a dedicated observatory with a sufficiently good telescope and powerful enough laser as their ground station which will probably set you back at least $50k unless you score as bargain or strike a deal with someone operating an experimental one.

[ok_dad]

> What SpaceX could do is provide a module that connected to the StarLink inter-satellite laser links they are planning to add in between the StarLink satellites.

Yea, that was basically the idea I was asking about, but like you explained, it seems laser links are expensive and rare still, so I guess that isn't an answer for at least a while yet.

Thanks for the great answer!