[rootusrootus]

I've lived in the midwest, and in Portland. What many people don't get is that Portland has hills bigger than what people in the midwest would call a mountain.

Also, snow in late December is relatively rare. We missed a white Christmas by one day. Only have an inch here where I'm at, but hey, take what you can get.

[im_down_w_otp]

The snow is also much more wet and slick in the PNW along the Puget Sound and down the Willamette River Valley than it is in many other places that receive regular annual snowfall. Mostly because when it snows in Seattle, Tacoma, Portland, etc. the temperature is hovering right at the melting point, so the snow compacts to a slick ice-like form quickly. Even up at the ski resorts on places like Mt. Hood the snow is damp and heavy feeling compared to the crisp and fluffy snow in the Rockies, for example.

That said, having spent most of my life in Portland and also most of my life driving in the mountains in the winter to ski & snowboard, I can confirm that people in Portland can't drive in the snow. It's almost as amusing as people driving in San Diego in the rain. :-)

[selimthegrim]

I did OK in the snow on the hills there with a standard/stick shift (though front wheel drive) Jetta TDI, although it did have traction control

[selimthegrim]

I should add this was Feb 2014 for context

[shanecleveland]

Not to mention the limited resources municipalities have to deal with these events, since they just don't happen that often.

It is more common to see 4WD vehicles abandoned in ditches because they didn't realize 4WD doesn't help with braking or going down a hill.

Wanna learn how to drive in the snow? Tackle an unplowed, 45 degree hill littered with vehicles that didn't make it.

[travisgriggs]

> Wanna learn how to drive in the snow? Tackle an unplowed, 45 degree hill littered with vehicles that didn't make it.

I'm sure your advice is a bit tongue in cheek? :D

I live on the hillier/colder/drier side of Washington where we do get some actual snow. During my kids' learning years of driving (16-18), first big snow, I find an empty/abandoned parking lot, take my kids there, do a couple of donuts and such, then throw the kid the keys, tell 'em "stay in the middleish and have fun."

They get a feel for massive understeer, sliding vs static fraction, etc this way. It makes it not a surprise later. Since they all have to learn to drive a stick (manual), we learn how to brake via downshifting too.

It all makes me feel skilled and is one of those rare moments where my teenagers actually think I have some useful wisdom to pass on still. Sadly, it earns me no credibility in any other area of their lives I'd like to peddle my wisdom to them. :)

[Ccecil]

I agree.

Coeur d'Alene, ID here. My advice to "new to the area" people when the topic of snow driving comes up is "go to a parking lot...put your car into a slide, spin, etc". It gives you a very good idea of what the car is going to do on the road and more importantly...allows you to learn how to recover from those situations at a time where you are less likely to have panic set in.

It really only takes a few minutes to get the feel for how the car will react. Learning those things in a controlled situation is a very good way to develop the "instinct" to correct without panic. Most of the time hitting the brakes is the wrong thing to do...that is not natural to a panicking driver.

[ekeane]

My parents had me do a driving school that specializes in inclement weather training. A few years ago, I did one at ProDrive at Portland International Raceway, and they have a car on a sled that reduces traction that is REALLY good for teaching kids this.

Definitely worth looking into in the PacNW.

[ddingus]

My favorite is to pull the e-brake and have them drive the car. Basically, they will need to continuously counter steer. Works after a few minutes, and it all clicks.

Next slide will see them execute the correction on instinct.

[eitland]

> Since they all have to learn to drive a stick (manual), we learn how to brake via downshifting too.

Something to be aware of when shifting down on stick shift is that certain carts are really unbalanced when braking on the gear. You won't notice in the summer, but on slippery roads just releasing the accelerator carelessly while in a low gear can send you on a sled ride.

[jjav]

If it is a rear wheel drive car, an unmatched (rpm) downshift will put effectively some braking force on the rear wheels. Which can near instantly snap oversteer if there is any steering input at all.

If you've driven a racing go-kart of the type that only has brakes on the rear axle, you'll be very familiar with this! Good practice.

[duck]

Just did this with my 15yo today in Bellingham - it works!

[dgfitz]

> Wanna learn how to drive in the snow? Tackle an unplowed, 45 degree hill littered with vehicles that didn't make it.

This isn’t great advice unless you want your insurance premiums to go up.

If you want to learn to drive in the snow, drive in the snow. Get a feel for your vehicle. Drive slower than you think you need to. Know your route ahead of time and avoid inclines if possible.

Don’t play pinball with your car down a hill full of other cars.

[shanecleveland]

I wasn't actually suggesting people do that. I'm saying that many people who claim to know how to drive in the snow come from places where it snows a lot, but they don't have Western Washington hilly terrain and their streets are regularly plowed, sanded, etc. Hence, they have not actually driven in the snow. The safest way to drive in the snow is to stay home.

[FourthProtocol]

Research is also useful -

The first key to effective snow driving is a light throttle and choosing the correct tyre. Driving in snow requires a tall tyre with a narrow section-width. This allows the tyre to cut through the crust and obtain traction on the hard surface beneath the snow (the opposite of sand tyres)...

And so on. I used to teach this stuff -- https://www.wittenburg.co.uk/offroading/Driving/Snow.html

[shanecleveland]

Yep. Though it does not snow a ton here in Western Washington, we go skiing in the Cascade passes. So I have deducted snow tires for our vehicles. They are the biggest difference maker in my opinion.

[jollybean]

It's not so much 'choosing the correct tire' - there's a 'category of tire' and it's called a 'snow tire' and everyone in snowy areas has them, often by law.

It's like 'choosing' to slip through the snow wearing Oxford shoes, or, put on a pair of boots.

All of these comments about bad driving in the W. Coast, about 50% of this is just everyone has completely the wrong tires.

[FourthProtocol]

Understood. I chose (forgive me) 'choosing the correct tire' because not everybody in snowy areas knows they need them, and not everybody has ready access to them. There's often no legal requirement for snow tyres, and some countries (Australia, for example) don't even HAVE snow tyres even though Canberra for eg, tends to get snow at least once a year.

Snow is no stranger in Scotland either, and there's no snow tyres requirement in the UK.

Germany has a law that states you must have winter tyres or all-year tyres from October to Easter ("Oktober bis Ostern" - O to O).

Drive up to Tiffindell Ski Resort in South Affrica (8,920 ft up) in whatever you have - donkey cart, bicyle, 4x4... That gets snowed in regularly, and there's a just a hand-made "4WD recommended" sign at the bottom of the mountain.

[jollybean]

Oh yes, I understand the lingo as a once-upon-a-time Canadian-Californian.

I totally get the confusion.

... and why people are driving around in smash up derbies with just 2 inches of snow.

I'm only just saying 'there isn't that much confusion' elsewhere, it's not like Bostonians have super magical driving ability.

They mostly just have winter tires.

Winter tires with proper 4x4 and ABS etc. can be a pretty safe package.

[gkop]

In California at least, it’s not that simple. There are “all weather tires” that, when paired with AWD, count for “snow tires” per CalTRANS chain control, and then there are real snow (and also, ice) tires. Guess what? You’re gonna have a better time with real snow tires versus all weather, but only the minority of vehicles in chain control in CA have them (IE the majority has chosen the wrong tire for snow safety).

[rootusrootus]

Personally I would be perfectly happy if everyone just ran those all-season mountain snowflake tires in the winter. Sure, they're not as good as a real snow tire, but they're actually pretty good overall and I'd have no problem throwing a set of those on my pickup and going over the mountain. For the kind of winter weather we routinely see west of the Cascades, this kind of tire is ideal.

But what really happens is we have a lot of people on summer tires or the crappiest of all season commodity tires. As long as you don't have to do an emergency stop or an evasive maneuver, they seem like they're adequate for Oregon weather. But I recommend everyone with such tires try a hard stop or turn (in a big parking lot of course) with these tires when it's sub-40F.

[jjav]

Yes, real snow tires have near-magical traction in snow compared to anything else. For anyone who lives in snowy areas, definitely get a set for winter.

Fortunately I live on the California coast now, but when I had to deal with snow I had a set of Hakkapeliitta snow tires (from Finland), they were incredible. I wouldn't want to risk snow driving on any generic all-weather tires.

[throwaway0a5e]

>It is more common to see 4WD vehicles abandoned in ditches because they didn't realize 4WD doesn't help with braking or going down a hill.

Snow tires also can't make stupid people not stupid, much to the chagrin of many an internet commenter and clipboard warrior.

As someone who is responsible for a fleet of vehicles that have to deal with snow I can say from experience that high end snow tires will not make empty RWD vans handle better than a run of the mill AWD crossovers on Walmart's finest all seasons. No amount of money can fix that kind of weight distribution.

[seanmcdirmid]

I did Monida pass in Idaho coming into Montana in winter with just AWD (no chains). It was a steep decline in the other end, definitely not 45 degrees but enough to make me queasy. Suffice it to say I kept my Subaru in 1st gear all the way down.

[noduerme]

Every single time it snows, Chicago transplants get out and go "OH NO! You guys don't know how to drive in the snow! Look at me! I'm from Chicago!" And then they slide straight off the side of a hill or backwards down a driveway.

It just keeps happening because there are new ones every year.

[SOLAR_FIELDS]

When I lived in Chicago I would drive past at least 5 cars (not an exaggeration) in the ditch after the first major ice in my 40 minute commute.

[akiselev]

People don't get climate period.

I was rather surprised to find out that my parents get a snow storm every year in late February or early March that dumps 1-3 inches of snow that takes several days to melt. They live not 40 minutes from La Jolla, a city in Southern California known for year round perfect weather.

They're barely at 3,000 feet elevation and as far as I know, the snow line in the Sierra Nevada mountains, even further north, is over twice that [1]. The nearest town a few miles away and a few hundred feet lower receives no snow whatsoever so we've been completely puzzled by the phenomenon. The funny thing is, I can't find any information about it online - it seems to be a very localized phenomenon in a sparsely populated exurban neighborhood and the locals just shrug about it.

[1] https://www.mdpi.com/2073-4441/9/11/899/html

[s1artibartfast]

You are misunderstanding that paper.Snow <3000 feet in the Sierra is common. The paper looks at specific locations over time, not the Sierra at large. some locations in the paper have a snow Line <500 feet.

I agree that most people don't care about climate mechanics, but it is well understood.

[gautamdivgi]

Chicago was a balmy 55 on Christmas Eve. It was in the lower to mid 40’s on Christmas Day. No white Christmas here. Just some rain.

[justinator]

That's beatnik poetry right there! [0]

Chicago was a balmy 55 on Christmas Eve

in the lower to mid 40’s on Christmas Day

No white Christmas here

Only RAIN!

[0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9fpH1cnAPIM

[b9a2cab5]

Interestingly I feel California has gotten colder, especially southern California. It used to stay around 50-60 in winter, now we regularly go down to 30-35 lows and 35-45 highs.

[thehappypm]

And Boston has been perfectly seasonal, snow on Christmas Eve.

[mym1990]

Nashville was an extremely pleasant 75, was fairly surprising!