[refurb]

No, you’re distorting history.

After the communist victory at Dien Bien Phu, the French negotiated a peace (without much choice) that forced them to give up the North (where the communists were strongest).

The French slowly disengaged from the South over the next decade leaving a fragile Vietnamese government in the South that had no interest in joining the communists in the North (1 million fled during partition).

The US did back a fractured, unstable government in the South in order to contain communism - I’m not arguing that. But to claim that the country, one that lasted 20 years, wasn’t “real” is just silly.

It’s like saying South Korea isn’t real because the UN backs it’s security and the communists had significant support prior to partition.

[the_af]

The US propped up a dictatorship in the South and canceled free elections because they knew Ho Chi Minh would win. This is a matter of recorded fact, not a conspiracy theory.

They had also been supporting the French with materiel and even limited numbers of advisors during the First Indochina War.

There was a war of national liberation against a colonial power, and the US sided with the colonial power.

[refurb]

This is false.

Of course Ho Chi Minh would win - there were no free elections in the North (100% of votes went for him!) and substantial support in the South. I wouldn’t call that a fair and free election.

Yes, and I agree the US supported the French materially and with advisors.

But South Vietnam was no longer a colonial power. The French were gone and the Vietnamese called the shots (not without foreign influence, I agree, but similar to the USSR and China influence in the North - you pay the bills you get a say).

But none of that infers the South wasn’t a real country.

[the_af]

> Of course Ho Chi Minh would win - there were no free elections in the North (100% of votes went for him!) and substantial support in the South. I wouldn’t call that a fair and free election.

False.

The US own internal documents stated they believed Ho Chi Minh held enormous popular support, especially in the countryside.

They cancelled the elections and instead propped up a bloody dictatorship. Nothing natural about the South, it was completely artificial, incompetent, and repressive.

[PicassoCTs]

The original Viet Minh was a anti-colonial organization, fighting against japan and france, in WW2 - ironically with US-Advisors and taking the US- as a example for a successful liberation from european colonial powers. After the war ended, the us- switched sides and dumped them. They then went and picked the next-best set of allies - which was russia/china.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1940%E2%80%931946_in_French_In...

[refurb]

Oh sure, he had a lot of support. But it was entirely clear the North was not going to allow any free vote. They had already purged any opposition long ago.

So are you arguing that South Korea is a “completely artificial, incompetent and repressive” country? It was also a dictatorship after the war for about 20 years. But Vietnam still is today after 50.

[the_af]

> So are you arguing that South Korea

No, I'm arguing about Vietnam. Please try not to sidetrack the conversation.

Fact: Ho Chi Minh had huge popular support and would have won general elections, a fact the US didn't like at that stage and so they made sure it didn't happen. Instead, they propped up one of the most brutal dictatorships in the region, one so bad they had to allow its removal and the assassination of their puppet dictator.

They also destroyed South Vietnam, killing villagers, poisoning the land and bombing the hell out of North Vietnam.

And they failed because they were foreign aggressors.

Fact: the US doesn't get to choose the form of government of other countries. When they try to do it by military force, they are invaders and aggressors.

You can argue until you're blue in the face, those are the facts.

[refurb]

Your facts are wrong. And I’m sorry you cant see the similarities between Korea and Vietnam. There was plenty of support for Kim Ill-Sung in South Korea as well, but there was plenty of opposition too.

The North was a brutal dictatorship propped up by China and the USSR.

The South was a brutal dictatorship propped up by the West.

Both had Vietnamese supporters. Again, to dismiss the South as not a real country is just twisting facts. It was a civil war between two Vietnamese factions and the South lost. Those are the facts.

The mythology the North has created around the war (just like every country does) is helped to keep its grip on power but is a gross oversimplification.

And you’re right, the US doesn’t get to choose which government a country has. But neither does Vietnam when it comes to Cambodia or Laos, but hey, they hasn’t stopped them!

[moksly]

English is not my first language so maybe fabrication is the wrong word? I didn’t mean fabrication as in it didn’t exist, but that it wouldn’t have existed without the US.