[Dylan16807]

I don't pretend to be unaware of that. I think it's a separate problem.

Like, okay, we say that anyone improperly imprisoned is being forced into labor.

What about everyone else? The argument above was that it clearly is forced labor, even when your sentence is completely valid. I disagree with that.

> US citizens are not uniquely criminal, but US incarceration rate is by far highest in the world. You don't get there justly.

It's a mix of things. Even if you fixed all the bias in the system, you could still have a high incarceration rate with harsh but not inherently unjust laws.

[ncmncm]

Nobody has a legitimate reason to want a high incarceration rate.

The only reason to have a higher incarceration rate than any other country in the whole world is, specifically, because you want to have your underclass ready to hand for slave labor. Or, generally, to repress them.

If you are relying on threat of incarceration to discourage criminal behavior, having the highest such rate in the world is reliable evidence that your method is failing to achieve that aim. Other countries are demonstrating better methods you could learn from. If you wanted to, that is.

[jollybean]

" because you want to have your underclass ready to hand for slave labor. Or, generally, to repress them."

This is not unsubstantiated.

Moreover, it's upside down:

The economic labour output from US prisons is negligible and has no material effect on the GPD or industrial basis.

... and those prisoners, were they outside of the prison systems, in 'regular jobs' - would add tremendously more to the GDP in terms of productivity.

[Dylan16807]

I never said anything about wanting a high incarceration rate.

There can be other reasons for harsh laws. Don't be so weirdly absolute. If a country does something wrong that doesn't mean it necessarily has the one specific motivation you're mad at and no other.

[ncmncm]

There are many motivations for evil action. They don't contradict, they add. Having more does not make it less evil.

[Dylan16807]

Yep.

Also this has nothing to do with the point I was trying to make, which wasn't about the US specifically.

To restate it, just to be very clear: 1. find someone that was legitimately sentenced to a fair duration of prison 2. offering them the ability to labor to reduce their sentence is not forced labor

[ncmncm]

Or, as we actually do, just assume they were legitimately sentenced to what we just assume is a fair duration.

Letting somebody innocent out "early", even if we extracted undue labor from them, could be a net good. But the incentives are all in the wrong direction, and we see the effects writ large all around us. Making fine points about a theoretical situation of justice and legitimacy is a harmful distraction in present circumstances, where we demonstrably don't have those.