[jmoreno94]

Because whether or not Bitcoin is silly, someone else paid their hard earned money for the coins, usually we say that makes someone the owner.

What do you usually call someone who takes a thing from its owner without permission?

[henvic]

Except that they aren't taking anything from anyone. It's information. They might be copying it. And you might argue things like privacy count, and I'd be willing to hear your reasoning, but this shouldn't be like magic.

Yeah, someone was silly to pay hard earned money in exchange from useless tokens. It was a gamble. If the useless tokens get stolen, I'm sorry to say, but whoever paid for BTC already lost their wealth in the first place when they converted whatever they had before for it.

[matheusmoreira]

> Except that they aren't taking anything from anyone. It's information. They might be copying it.

It's true that information is infinitely abundant. However, unlike copyrighted works, private keys are not supposed to be shared. There should never be more than one copy of that number in the entire universe. If people can brute force keys by guessing, we've probably got bigger problems.

Obtaining that number without authorization is already a crime. Accessing computers illegally to exfiltrate data is already a crime. Breaking into a physical safe in order to obtain a paper key is already a crime.

[henvic]

> Obtaining that number without authorization is already a crime. Accessing computers illegally to exfiltrate data is already a crime. Breaking into a physical safe in order to obtain a paper key is already a crime.

Sure thing. Hence, the importance of analyzing each case individually. If unauthorized computer access is used, sure thing a crime was committed. If someone created a wallet using a stupid wallet generator which used this website to "create" private keys, and someone else also had this silly idea, and someone deposited Bitcoin on a wallet created by this mean and and someone else took it, then no crime was committed.

[matheusmoreira]

Yeah, I agree with that.

You don't even need the website. Cryptographic keys are just numbers. All data is just numbers. You can write simple code to generate all numbers from zero to infinity and it will eventually generate all cryptograhpic keys, all computer files, all copyrighted works, all hate speech, all child abuse material, everything that can possibly be represented as data.

The thing is the search space is so unfathomably large that such a program will never produce useful results. This is central to cryptography. If a private key is copied, it must have been done so illegally or accidentally. Any other option means the cryptography is defective.

This is the complete opposite of copyrighted works whose entire purpose is copying. The data is already known and they're hopelessly trying to regulate access to it.

[henvic]

> If a private key is copied, it must have been done so illegally or accidentally. Any other option means the cryptography is defective.

I agree if you're talking about an evidence such as a high-quality video or even photo with everything leading us to believe it's legit. However, we can not be as confident if we're talking about a BTC token. While extremely unlikely, there might be faulty algorithm implementations, problems with the algorithm, etc., that might lead to this situation.

Very unlikely? Sure, but we've to give the benefit of the doubt.

[iosjunkie]

The balance of your bank account is similarly “information”. But since everyone places value on that information, it’s valuable.

And these days, they way society is using traditional currency is become less tangible all the time. It’s is 100% possible to live life with never touching physical currency. Get paid via direct deposit, credit cards for your daily expenses, ACH your housing bill and credit card expenses. All just information flowing around.

Crypto is certainly overhyped and overvalued days, but it’s seems that at the core, crypto and modern banking are accomplishing the same thing: managing numbers(information) that people value.

[AstroDogCatcher]

The key difference is that one of these things has the backing and approval of recognized governments who also control law enforcement, while the other is just some guys on the internet. I'm not so sure "finding a pre-existing bitcoin wallet I can claim, and doing so" is really any different than "generating hashes until the blockchain hands me a prize".

[azth]

That's not an argument. In any case, more and more governments are now recognizing crypto as something real, and are coming onboard. E.g. most recently Dubai.

[CamelRocketFish]

Could you tell me how it’s changing in Dubai?

[azth]

Look up dubai crypto hub

[DarylZero]

The same thing is true about a bank account. Your balance is just information. Cash is just useless tokens.

[azth]

So if I do a bank transfer from your account to mine, I'm just "copying information".

[henvic]

No. You're accessing computer resources that you don't own and you aren't authorized to.

[azth]

Same with private cryptocurrency keys. Otherwise, accessing non-public APIs with weak security by playing around with the URL would be legal.

[henvic]

No. Invalid comparison. If you legitimately discover a cryptocurrency wallet private key by sheet lucky, and such cryptocurrency has no backing = is based in pure thin air, such as the case of Bitcoin, and there are public nodes which doesn't require you to abide by contracts that would forbid you to do so (which is supposedly all nodes), you're good to use that as you wish and it won't be a crime.

It's unethical to steal something tangible. Bitcoin has no tangibility whatsoever. You can't steal it.

[pests]

What? From an engadget article:

---

Property is legally defined as 'Not only money and other tangible things of value, but also includes any intangible right considered as a source or element of income or wealth.'

That includes protectable ideas, digital files, financial instruments (like stocks and bonds, loans and credits), computer graphics, certain arrangements of words and quite a bit more.

---

What does tangibility mean to you? That allows you steal the examples in the second paragraph without legal reprecussions nor ethical dilemmas?

[azth]

Of course you can steal it, and it's unethical and should be punishable. Not sure what planet we live on here.

[smus]

Bits on a server representing your account balance also have no tangibility

[hellojesus]

The problem with crypto is the ownership (edit: maybe I should say authorization to transact) is defined only by the private key.

You may get lucky with KYC, but who in their right mind would gen a collision only to get caught on the cash out?

You're not in control once someone has your pk unless you can mobilize a 51% attack to fix your problem.

[seanw444]

Borrowing it, obviously ;)