[munk-a]

> The right call her for Apple is to allow users to give permission to specific apps to disable this but let's not start with the idea that pros are outputting directly from their computers without the right hardware.

The unfortunate case with a preference is that as soon as you enable such a permission folks can force users to enable that permission to use their invasive software. The orange dot exists because applications have been abusing privacy by invasively using audio and visual recording to spy on people. The solution to this problem isn't very simple and while the orange dot is causing headaches the lack of an orange dot also causes headaches.

[q-big]

> The solution to this problem isn't very simple and while the orange dot is causing headaches the lack of an orange dot also causes headaches.

If both options have a disadvantage, give users a choice which of the evils they prefer, for example in the pre-boot environment.

P.S. I am of course aware that it is not typical for Apple to give users a choice.

[munk-a]

As per my comment - the unfortunate truth is that offering users a choice means denying users the freedom from being creeped on as every app under the sun asks for silent microphone access "for design reasons". We've seen how ineffective app permissions (that can't be selectively restricted by the OS as on Android) have been for iOS devices. Apps boot up and demand access to contacts, your camera and your microphone and if you refuse they quit out.

It can be empowering to users to deny bad choices - since it prevents users from being coerced by malicious software (i.e. tiktok, facebook, instagram - not like virus laden software).

That all said there is some legitimate functionality being lost with this decision.

[jcims]

offering choice ~ denying freedom

empowering ~ deny bad choices

Just my opinion, but these linguistic contortions undermine your point.

Providing users with a decision in which there is an asymmetry and/or incentives could be setting them up for manipulation. But i think there are ways to balance the asymmetry vs. just removing the choice. A simple report showing which apps were watching/listening along with screen time could be useful, for example.

[munk-a]

I hope this isn't nitpicking but I don't consider those linguistic contortions. A minimum wage empowers workers to receive an (ideally) living wage while, on the surface, restricting them from being able to sell their time for ever lower amounts. There are a lot of debates as to the efficacy and justifiability of things like a minimum wage but it's important to remember that any prevailing sense of the linguistic definitions you might assume is a local effect. Comparing American vs. European definitions of empowerment is a pretty clear demonstration of this where in Europe the ability to live a good healthy life is paramount and restrictions that promote that life style are generally considered empowering.

I do think there might be some other solutions but I also think the orange dot is, for almost all users, a perfectly acceptable solution - visually obvious without being obnoxious.

[q-big]

> but I also think the orange dot is, for almost all users, a perfectly acceptable solution - visually obvious without being obnoxious.

That is why the user should be given the choice to activate it: make it a sensible default choice in the respective settings. The experienced users who know what they do should be empowered to make a different choice if it makes sense for their workflow.

[GekkePrutser]

The OP mentioned a preboot setting specifically which would not be per app and be tricky enough to scare regular users from being tricked into doing it. Sounds like a good solution for Pro users.

[munk-a]

Yea - a preboot setting actually seems like a pretty rational way to allow this fix. I don't think it's easy to get ignorant users to mess around with bios or other system level settings.

[EugeneOZ]

Malware can make this choice for you and you will never know about that.

[q-big]

That is exactly the reason why I suggested that the user makes such choices in a pre-boot environment.