[woodruffw]

Being subjected to the carceral system is indeed bad for your health, but there's a gap here: you haven't explained why banning smoking means we have to put people in prison.

I would have thought to just fine them, or tax purchases out of existence. No need for shackles.

[tptacek]

The enforcement of that fining system will put thousands of people in prison, since fining use necessarily means prohibiting sale (or, fining retail sale necessarily prohibits wholesale, etc). This is a thing people already go to prison for, simply because the licensing fees annoy people.

[adolph]

> tax purchases out of existence

NYPD officers approached Garner on July 17 on suspicion of selling single cigarettes from packs without tax stamps. After Garner told the police that he was tired of being harassed and that he was not selling cigarettes, the officers attempted to arrest Garner. When Pantaleo placed his hands on Garner, Garner pulled his arms away. Pantaleo then placed his arm around Garner's neck and wrestled him to the ground. With multiple officers pinning him down, Garner repeated the words "I can't breathe" 11 times while lying face down on the sidewalk. After Garner lost consciousness, he remained lying on the sidewalk for seven minutes while the officers waited for an ambulance to arrive. Garner was pronounced dead at an area hospital approximately one hour later.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killing_of_Eric_Garner

[tedajax]

How do people pay fines? If they are unable to pay what are the penalties? You also just created a black market for people who still want to smoke and that'll produce all kinds of fun.

[woodruffw]

There's already a massive black market for people who want to smoke in the form of tax stamp fraud. It used to be even bigger than it currently is, but there are two forces working against it: the overall decline of organized crime starting in the 1980s, and the overall decline in the number of smokers.

Black markets are a reality under current economic conditions, and they're a reality even in completely legal markets (there's always someone willing to pay XX% less in exchange for YY% more legal risk). Putting extreme taxes and/or fines on smoking might pour gas on that market, but long-term trends just don't support its survival.

And as for fines: we already have a legal structure for that[1].

[1]: https://www.dol.gov/general/topic/wages/garnishments

[tedajax]

The knock on effects of fines and the damage the systems cause when someone can't pay a fine are far worse than the effects of smoking.

[woodruffw]

I think they can be, although I'd like to see specific numbers on that. Killing roughly half a million Americans a year is a high bar to clear in terms of harmful social policy changes.

But there's also a trend against long term damage here: smoking rates have been declining for decades, and the evidence overwhelmingly suggests that higher taxes and civil penalties (like fines for smoking in parks) do reduce smoking across all ages and demographics. Fewer people smoking overall means fewer people who are subject to any sort of systemic abuse. That feels like a decent tradeoff to me, especially when we consider the knock-on effects of smoking itself (individual and community health, pollution, dental outcomes, &c).

[klyrs]

You can't tax purchases out of existence. That creates a black market. Indeed, countries that have raised taxes to astronomical levels have significant illegal markets for tobacco.

[Turing_Machine]

Bootleg cigarettes are a problem even within the United States, particularly in regions where the state or local tax is exorbitant.

[selectodude]

They’re highly addictive. Banning them turns millions into criminals.

[Veen]

> I would have thought to just fine them

What happens when they don't pay their fines? There has to be some backup plan and it's usually jail. You could keep increasing the fine for as long as they don't pay, but they you end up with loads of bankrupt people.

> or tax purchases out of existence

That creates a black market. In the UK, where tobacco taxes are high, it's quite easy to find small shops and individuals who will sell illegally imported cigarettes at a fraction of the price.