[bayesian_horse]

Suicide isn't logical or rational. It's almost always the result of a temporary state of mind, therefor it matters how accessible the means of ending one's life is.

Easy and instant access to firearms for example leads to way more successful (and even just attempted) suicides because it takes less time to take out a gun and shoot than virtually anything else.

[Borrible]

> Suicide isn't logical or rational

Sometimes it is.

Not for most of the type of suicide we talk about here, I agree with you. But there are differences.

Regarding firearms, what about suicide rates in Japan? Would they be higher with easier access to firearms?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_in_Japan

[bayesian_horse]

What do you think I meant by "almost always"?

And yes, I believe there would be even more successful suicides in Japan if the Japanese had easier access to firearms.

[Borrible]

> What do you think I meant by "almost always"?

Actually I did not consider what you meant with "almost always", because it is quite fuzzy and the value of that variable will may change over the discussion.

[watwut]

> Would they be higher with easier access to firearms?

Quite possibly. Is there a reason to think they would not?

And yes, culture where suicide can be honorable or beautiful ending will likely have more suicides. Western tradition was treating suicide as a sin and stigma.

[Borrible]

> Is there a reason to think they would not?

Yes, It could be dishonorable to use a firearm. A little bit of pain may make you look more manly, such stuff. The socio-cultural embedding of an an act that makes it logical and rational.

[guerrilla]

> Suicide isn't logical or rational.

This is bullshit. It may or may not be depending on individual conditions. If someone knows that they will suffer significatly for the rest of their lives, then it's entirely logical ans rational for them to end their life. It would be irrational to continue living if the cons were guaranteed (or even had a high likelyhood) to outweigh the pros.

[bayesian_horse]

You ignored the "almost always" part.

And for me "suffering" is not that logical or rational at all, for that matter. The expectation of such suffering can be reasonable. The willingness to end this suffering can be reasonable. This, however, is a small minority of suicides, suicide attempts and even more so, suicidal ideation.

[guerrilla]

No, I didn't. You wrote "Suicide isn't logical or rational." not that suicide almost always isn't logical or rational; and then you gave an explanation that you claimed (without evidence or argument) is "almost always" the case.

> This, however, is a small minority of suicides, suicide attempts and even more so, suicidal ideation.

What data do you base this on and why do you believe that data to be representative?

[mensetmanusman]

It’s impossible to understand the future with 100% certainty, ergo illogical.

[guerrilla]

This isn't even true in anything but a irrelevantly literal way, first of all. There are incurable diseases which can cause massive suffering. It would be irrational to live with one when consensus is that a cure won't be remotely on the horizon for one's lifetime. Sure, something could come up unexpectedly but you could also win the lotto too and it's irrational to play that. Second of all, your argument invalidates all decision making and planning, so is really a reductio ad absurdum for itself.

[weregiraffe]

> It's almost always the result of a temporary state of mind,

Your every decision is a result of a temporary state of mind.

[slx26]

Unless you think hope is always logical or rational, then there are some situations in which suicide can be logical or rational. Or maybe simply humane, if you want. While reducing impulse suicides (and all suicides) is a noble goal, saying suicide isn't logical or rational to me is downplaying and disconnecting from the suffering of those that need the support (and not the judgement) the most.