[llbeansandrice]

Perhaps I'm being too US-centric but I feel like you at-best mean conservatism with a lower-case 'c'. Even then the very definition of conservatism explicitly avoids any change:

> commitment to traditional values and ideas with opposition to change or innovation

I've never known conservatism to be anything except opposition to change as that's the most conservative thing you can generally do: nothing.

[akiselev]

Even in the US that's a very uncharitable interpretation of conservatism that sounds like something I'd say in the heat of a Thanksgiving dinner argument.

The more charitable one is called "progressive conservatism". Progressive conservatives believe, among other things, that "instant change is not always the best and can sometimes be damaging to society, therefore cautious change that fits in with the nation's social and political traditions is necessary." [1] Progressive conservatives were the driving force behind abolition in Britain as well as natural conservation and the national park system in the United States, for example, so it's hardly a philosophy that resists all change.

A few presidents like Theodore Roosevelt and Dwight Eisenhower have called themselves progressive conservatives but in reality, the philosophy underpins the entire US Constitution and system of government going back to the founding fathers. It's the checks and balances that keep our (ostensible) democracy functioning. It's the court systems that can delay or outright kill hasty legislation. The conservatives want to let the progressives leap into the future while they focus on conserving the good things about the present so that they don't become casualties to progress.

To be clear the GOP is neither conservative, nor progressive, nor progressive conservative. They're just the elephant in the room.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progressive_conservatism

[beepbooptheory]

I feel like this is very true, and why I am glad there are other options than: conservative, liberal, or generically "progressive".

These gradients feel more armchair philosophical than things that speak to the actual problems and patterns of the world as I, at least, know it. I can't imagine getting so hung up on some naturalistic sociological question of consensus, with the idea that would actually change our general trajectory. It all very much reeks to me of a history walking on its head.

[chernevik]

Lincoln took great care to root his arguments against slavery in the principles of the Founding Fathers.

[arrosenberg]

Eh, I agree the GOP is reactionary rather than conservative, but I think this is an equal charitable take, especially this statement -

> It's the checks and balances that keep our (ostensible) democracy functioning.

I'm a fan of TR and Eisenhower to a lesser extent, so this isn't exactly a criticism. The US Constitution was definitely founded under the model you describe, but those things aren't necessarily indivisible from each other. The progressive conservatism you defined is a commitment to a hierarchical model of liberalism. Many of the achievements of both Roosevelts and Eisenhower were in the name of warding off Socialist and Communist movements in the early and mid 20th century. They were progressive in giving more rights and services to the common person (well, some of them, some of the time) and conservative in maintaining the ability of the wealthy to continue on with their necks and bank balances intact.

Although some of the critiques of conservative liberalism (as opposed to the historical, royalist conservatism) can be waved off as "the Republicans aren't actually conservative any more", there is a still a valid critique to be made if you believe that 250 years is more than enough time to embrace a more egalitarian model.

[underwater]

The differentiator between conservatism and progressivism is whether you seek societal change. If you believe that change should happens incrementally then you're a progressive. The examples you've given just sound like branding.

[ravel-bar-foo]

I think the point of GP is that one can seek change, but seek it slowly and carefully. Presumably GP would take a position in favor of "reform the system" over the platform of "abolish the system", which is popular among Progressives today.

Whether this is actually what Conservatives believe (or rather, what percentage of them believe it) is debatable, but I could see this sentiment actually being widespread enough to be the main source of resistence to Progressive political movements.

After all, isn't the whole goal of Progressivism to create a society so good that one wants to Conserve it?

[underwater]

My point was that the definition of progressivism is, literally "support for or advocacy of social reform", while conservatism is "seeks to promote and to preserve traditional social institutions." If you want to see social change, then you're progressive. How you think that should happen -- whether it is measured or radical -- is secondary.

[ravel-bar-foo]

Under that definition, a self-proclaimed libertarian would be a progressive, as would someone who wants to replace public schools with religious institutions. A neocon, who wants to forcefully bring democracy to a foreign country, would be a progressive in that country. Perhaps different terms are more useful.

[jjoonathan]

A terminology zoo is helpful when you want to encode additional information about political context, but if you're trying to draw parallels then less is more. In this case, "keep the status quo it might be important" and "ditch the status quo it might be the cause of our problems" are battle lines that get drawn again and again and again over many different issues under many different circumstances. It makes sense to draw the parallel.

[rootusrootus]

> I think the point of GP is that one can seek change, but seek it slowly and carefully.

This sounds like a position that a conservative would take, because it paints them as eminently reasonable (and progressives, by comparison, must be unreasonable).

[mensetmanusman]

Politics is simply preference, some people prefer to speed, some would rather drive below the limit.

They are both right for their own reasons, but they both appear insane to the other at first glance.

[monodeldiablo]

That characterization doesn't match my experience at all. You presume we all want to go in the same direction, but that our main disagreement is about speed.

In my experience, the main source of political conflict is direction, not speed.

[BurningFrog]

I called it "the sane version of Conservatism". There are many others. Political scientists probably have a more specific name for mine. I should learn that some day.

Yeah, many people with very different ideas call themselves conservatives.

> I've never known conservatism to be anything except opposition to change as that's the most conservative thing you can generally do: nothing.

Have you never known conservatives wanting to lower taxes, deregulate the economy, and decentralize decision making?

[GhettoComputers]

>Have you never known conservatives wanting to lower taxes, deregulate the economy, and decentralize decision making?

I know its not conservative or liberal, it depends how you look at it. Deregulation of markets was seen as liberal at one time, devolution is pretty well supported except by some that support strong central government control, and lower taxes is often seen as American conservative, instead of offering services that they skim, or taxing you and giving you back more money (lol) they just won't take it in the first place. Milton Friedman's negative income tax is a beautiful way to help the poor without sudden cutoffs for when they try to become wealthier too.

I would say that these labels aren't as useful as top down control (big government, tell people what to do) or bottom up control (power to the people, let them do as they want to). Both can be useful for different reasons. The ozone hole and banning freon was top down but the tragedy of the common would mean it would never get fixed. The federal government also shouldn't raid dispensaries and prevent weed smoking.

[mensetmanusman]

Most conservatives I know want to decentralize decision making, lower taxes, and deregulate the economy.

[monodeldiablo]

Except as regards gay or abortion rights, military funding, and drug policy. Right?

I know that's the case for every conservative I know, at least. They stand for those values in the abstract, as an ostensibly philosophy to undergird their politics... But oppose those values in practice.

[BurningFrog]

Under the current Roe v Wade regime, abortion law is centralized to 9 judges on the Supreme Court.

Republicans want to decentralize this to democratic decisions in each state.

[AvesMerit]

Why not decentralize this democratic decision further - let individuals choose whether they're pro-choice or pro-life?

[playpause]

That definition does not say “avoids any change”. It says it opposes change, which can reasonably be taken as a general leaning. I mean, just think about it, do you think you could find even one single small-c conservative who argues that every possible change is bad?

[GhettoComputers]

If we talk about politics even the conservatives are liberal, both want society to be better with different methods. Few conservatives say do nothing, one critique of conservatives is "what exactly are they conserving?" Amish are one of the fastest groups to adopt solar panels and have done so for decades.

> commitment to traditional values and ideas with opposition to change or innovation

Trump was not traditional, and Obama was very moderate, even stating he did not support gay marriage. Don't trust general labels!