[yjftsjthsd-h]

Okay, yes, but to date, to a first approximation, nobody does that. And yes, that's unfortunate, but in the world we live in, and the world we will live in for the near future, environment variables seem no worse than any other option, regardless of ways that other options could be made better.

[dcow]

Env vars are strictly worse than files because of how easy they are to access. You need shell code of some sort to read a file assuming you don’t privilege drop whereas env vars are persistently available to everything everywhere.

[strenholme]

Huh? Environmental variables are only available to a process, any children the process has, any other process running as the same user ID, and the root user on a given POSIX compliant system.

E.g if I do this:

  export FOO=bar

processes running as other user IDs (unless root) will not know FOO is “bar”. Actually, even other processes running as me/root won’t know FOO’s value until I spawn a child process after that “export” command—environment only becomes visible outside a process when it runs execve() and passes its environment on.

An environmental variable is about as safe as a file with 600 or 700 perms (i.e. make a file be set up with POSIX ACLs to be read only by the owner of the file): If user separation is done so insecure processes run with a different user/group ID (and modern *NIX system gives each user its own default group), the cracker still has work to do before getting important secrets in our environment.

Also, FOO being bar in the environment (i.e. we can see it with getenv() ) will only be visible to the current any child process after “export FOO=bar”.

If you’re able to run getenv() to get at the environment, or able to read (in Linux) /proc/$PID/environ to see the environment of other processes running as you, you will generally also be able to run open() to get at files.

Environment leaking is a serious bug in a *NIX/POSIX system; If I can, as “Alice”, view anything in the environment belonging to “Bob”, that’s a serious security bug which needs to have a CVE number.

[dcow]

https://www.freedesktop.org/software/systemd/man/systemd.exe...

[strenholme]

Thank you for the link and information.

To be fair, while a concern, that’s not “everything everywhere”. That’s the current process, child processes (even if setuid), root, other processes running as the same user, and maybe processes with different user IDs sharing the same d-bus (D-bus is not used on servers, only desktop systems). I consider that slightly but not much more leaky than an unencrypted chmod 600 or chmod 700 permission file.

It’s more secure than, say, command line arguments (which can be seen by any process on the same system).

[dcow]

> dbus is not used on servers?

In my experience dbus has shown up on embedded devices, routers, servers, desktops, etc. Maybe it’s not being used and I don’t know it… Avahi (the mDNS daemon & tool), for example, uses dbus.

I would say containers are more to blame for making env var secrets pretty okay. But people should be aware of what the systemd man page says about env vars because there are scenarios where persisting secrets in a spot easily queryable via procfs and/or dbus is not okay.

And systemd provides a way to correctly pass secrets by allowing you to specify a credential blob that is accessible via the filesystem and properly restricted to the target service. So there’s an easy way to securely pass secrets, people should use that before reaching for env vars.

https://www.freedesktop.org/software/systemd/man/systemd.exe...

[strenholme]

Thank you again for the informative reply. I saw two dbus-daemons running on my Ubuntu server; I killed the user d-bus daemon process running as me and nothing seems to break, so while it’s there, it doesn’t seem to be used by anything on my server.

While I do note that systemd man page, it goes in to no detail about how dbus leaks the environment.

Looking at the D-Bus specification [1], org.freedesktop.DBus.UpdateActivationEnvironment is the only thing which concerns itself about the environment. It says that the “session bus activated services inherit the environment of the bus daemon”, so it looks like the D-Bus leakage is any system-level environmental variables set when the D-Bus daemons are started, or any variables set using UpdateActivationEnvironment.

The concern here appears to be that system-level environmental variables aren’t safe. I don’t see anything about a user process setting something like export FOO="top secret password" being more unsafe than a chmod 700 or chmod 600 file.

I have already noted the various ways environmental variables can leak on this page:

https://github.com/samboy/rg32hash/blob/master/C/microrg32.m...

I will update the D-Bus information there based on what I read in the D-Bus spec.

[1] https://dbus.freedesktop.org/doc/dbus-specification.html