[grundoon]

The story I heard (I worked at Borland briefly in 1999): Microsoft would send a limo to the Borland HQ to pick up engineers for interviews on their lunch breaks. Borland sued, Microsoft settled for many millions, but basically instead of buying their rival outright (for assimilation into the Borg, lol), they just bought the talent. Last I knew Borland had changed names at least twice (Inprise, Embarcadero) and still existed, in some remnant form.

[jamespo]

Amusingly Steve Ballmer got the hump when MS engineers started leaving for Google

[nostrademons]

As did Google when Google engineers started leaving for Facebook, and FB when their engineers started leaving for Uber/Lyft/AirBnB/Stripe/Coinbase/etc, and so on. It's pretty much a revolving door now, where many engineers have worked at all these companies and sometimes even come back to their home base.

CA's prohibition against non-competes and the DoJ's lawsuit against anti-poaching agreements is basically what makes Silicon Valley work.

[jamespo]

Oh that definitely happened, but we don't have quotes from Google like this:

    Prior to joining Google, I set up a meeting on or about November 11, 2004 with Microsoft’s CEO Steve Ballmer to discuss my planned departure….At some point in the conversation Mr. Ballmer said: “Just tell me it’s not Google.” I told him it was Google.

    At that point, Mr. Ballmer picked up a chair and threw it across the room hitting a table in his office. Mr. Ballmer then said: “F---ing Eric Schmidt is a f---ing p--sy. I’m going to f---ing bury that guy, I have done it before, and I will do it again. I’m going to f---ing kill Google.”

[llampx]

Not that the giants haven't tried to be a cartel when it comes to labor. Including Jobs at Apple.

[Tozen]

Borland sold their software division to Embarcadero, which appears to have been a big payday for top execs as they jumped out. However, Embarcadero did do a decent job of keeping the ship afloat and running things, though Delphi got very expensive. Idera then bought Embarcadero, but appears to allow it to have a high level of autonomy.

[eitland]

Another maybe interesting detail:

At some point there was an attempted pivot as well or maybe it was just what Embarcadero always had focused on.

I wasn't yet working in software then I think but there was an interview or paid article or something I think were someone told that the future of software laid not in languages and IDEs but in Software Lifecycle Management.

In a way they were right:

Today all major languages have free and open source implementations and Atlassian and a few others seems to have found larger or smaller sweet spots in what I think is Software Lifecycle Management or something.

That said what could Borland do at that point? It probably felt worse for them to bet the farm but in my opinion it absolutely isn't the most bone headed moveI have seen.

That said: The ads not so long after for "Delphi con" or something similar with large "No toothbrush required", that didn't exactly seem smart to me. I think by then everyone who used their products were grown up serious business programmers.

[CRConrad]

> At some point there was an attempted pivot as well or maybe it was just what Embarcadero always had focused on. [...] that the future of software laid not in languages and IDEs but in Software Lifecycle Management.

That was after they'd changed their name from Borland to Inprise, before they sold out to Embarcadero. I think that, in contrast to this, Embarcadero still bought them mainly for the IDEs.

[CRConrad]

> I think that, in contrast to this, Embarcadero still bought them mainly for the IDEs.

Indeed, seems it was the dev tools division Emba bought. Maybe the ALM div is still around. Hm, have I actually heard somewhere they even switched the name or that back from Inprise to Borland, or am I imagining it? Naah, can't be -- 't'would be both too pathetic and too absurd.

[Kye]

I remember I started getting a bunch of emails from an "Embarcadero." I didn't remember subscribing, and the unsubscribe didn't work, so I just wrote a filter to skip the inbox and send them all to spam. I must have subscribed to something from Borland at some point.

[MichaelMoser123]

Interesting, do they make a similar effort to hire IntelliJ staff? I mean they could offer a much higher sallary than what they would get in Russia. Or is it all due to having the top guy, who is in the know on who-is-who?

[subroutine]

What was the basis of the lawsuit?

[Jabbles]

"In the past 30 months, Microsoft has hired at least 34 of Borland's top software architects, engineers, and marketing managers", according to a complaint prepared by Wilson Sonsini Goodrich & Rosati. These actions have been undertaken “for wrongful purposes: to acquire Borland confidential information and to inhibit Borland's competitive position,” the filing states.

Borland's lawsuit seeks unspecified financial damages and an immediate end to Microsoft's unfair practice of targeting Borland employees in order to hamper the company's ability to compete. The suit claims that Microsoft's activities are illegal under California Business & Professions Code Section 17200.

https://www.eetimes.com/borland-sues-microsoft-for-unfair-co...

[eatonphil]

> Saying that he "just wants Microsoft to leave us alone," Borland International (BORL) CEO Delbert Yocam today filed a lawsuit against Microsoft (MSFT), claiming that the software giant is hiring away Borland's key employees to put it out of business.

https://www.cnet.com/tech/services-and-software/borland-sues...

[romeros]

Ruthless. Just pure evil to target one specific company like that!

[zepto]

Not really. Borland could have issued attractive stock based retention packages to the employees they wanted to keep, and forced Microsoft to acquire the company or go away.

This was on Borland for not adequately valuing their staff.

[duped]

Borland was losing over a hundred million in revenue while Microsoft was offering seven figure signing bonuses. There's no way they could have paid more than what MS was, since MS was using their war chest to kill the company.

[zepto]

If they were losing a hundred million in revenue before their best employees were poached then we should thank Microsoft for saving these people‘s careers.

[xchaotic]

as the op says - they could have issued stock instead of real money

[bitwize]

I call equity "Bison dollars": https://youtu.be/Shxiy7l5b_4

It's only worth anything if the world-domination plans go off without a hitch.

[speedgeek]

"Stock Instead of Real Money" is my new band name. So much meaning in just five words :)

[duped]

Equity schmequity, and we don't know what Borland did or didn't offer to keep people around. We just know MS offered more.

[zepto]

We know for sure that Borland didn’t offer enough. And we can reasonable speculate that they didn’t offer a significant ownership stake.

[FpUser]

Anders got 3mil signing bonus. Hard to counter that.

[zepto]

Easy - give him 4 mil in equity.

On the other hand if the company doesn’t have good prospects, then indeed there is nothing you can do.

[AtlasBarfed]

a million dollar signing bonus? Is there documentation of this?

[guessbest]

I remember hearing rumors that microsoft would pay some developers $1 million a year and tell them to just take a vacation instead of work at borland.

[rootsudo]

Man, 1999 sounds wild.

[llampx]

Long term this kind of practice is bad for engineers the same way Wal-Mart driving other retailers out of town with low prices due to their size was bad for small businesses and small towns in the 90s and 00s.

[ConcernedCoder]

how do I upvote a comment more than once?

[Ansil849]

You're acting like the employees were forced into the limos at gunpoint. People have free volition. Offering someone a better opportunity is not remotely 'evil'.

[Lammy]

"What's wrong with this country? Can't a man walk down the street without being offered a job‽" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yDbvVFffWV4

[tinalumfoil]

In this case it's more like, "can't a CEO walk down the street knowing his employees are safely shielded from better work opportunities"

[blagie]

It's anti-competitive.

There's a difference between hiring talent because you want talent, and hiring talent to undermine a smaller competitor.

It's an analogous to dumping.

That is evil.

[AtlasBarfed]

Dumping is basically not enforced, even if it is against the law.

Monopolies and cartels are against the law, but not enforced.

It is a sad reality of the modern economy, and one of the biggest indicators of who actually runs America.

At least in this case workers made money.

If borland was losing money, why didn't the execs negotiate a merger if they had so much desirable talent?

Hmmmmm, I bet the execs couldn't negotiate a big enough reward for themselves in an acquisition. The limo pickup at lunch strikes me as a big middle finger to Borland's management.

Of all of Borland's products that I liked, did I like them because of the software devs or the management? I guess what I want is the borland devs back.

I miss Turbo Pascal, DOS or Windows.

[Ansil849]

Again...you are acting as if the people being hired are...what? Not humans with free will?

[blagie]

Shoppers buying lower-priced products at a giant retailer moving into a new market are also humans with free will. It's the rational choice.

Once the store drives local businesses out, prices go up.

That's why this kind of behavior is unlawful.

[Ansil849]

I don't understand your analogy. Are you saying once Microsoft drives Borland out it will...cut salaries?...raise prices?

[gavinray]

It's not ruthless -- it's business.

If the fault lies on anyone, it's the employees who accepted the offers. If they really thought it was "evil", they would have denied the offer on moral grounds or in loyalty to their employer.

Do you not frequently get offers for more money than you are currently making at your employer? I would be a massive asshole if I accepted and left a job every time I got one of those -- especially in this market!

Since they succeeded in hiring so much of their company away, it seems none of them felt particularly attached to Borland or their work there, compared to a salary.

The only "evil" in the situation is how easily some (most?) people will abandon you the moment they get a better opportunity.

I suppose Borland could have matched salaries or tried to keep their employees in whatever way (maybe they did, who knows?) but at the end of the day either they didn't, or it wasn't enough for those engineers.

[thesuitonym]

>The only "evil" in the situation is how easily some (most?) people will abandon you the moment they get a better opportunity.

As if your company wouldn't fire you the moment it was more lucrative to do so.

[fknorangesite]

> It's not ruthless -- it's business.

It's not like these things are mutually exclusive.

[gavinray]

It's a dick move, and I wouldn't do it, but I am also not beholden to a board of investors/shareholders that expect to see positive ROE at the end of the day.

[anonymousiam]

This is part of Microsoft's core culture. Bill Gates championed the philosophy of doing anything it takes to get ahead, as long as there's some argument that it might be legal.

[gavinray]

And to their credit they've been fantastically successful. I enjoy many things in my day-to-day life by Microsoft provided "free" of charge.

Take that for what you will.

[ipaddr]

Wait till you hear how they compete for suppliers, customers, and regulatory changes. Business is about gaining an advantage over a rival. Scoping up rival employees is a 2x activity, you get talent and a competitor has less.

[Rexxar]

> It's not ruthless -- it's business.

Targeting all employees of a smaller company to destroy them is considered unfair business practice in some countries (legitimately IMHO). It's similar than selling at loss until your smaller competitor is out of business.

[gavinray]

  > It's similar than selling at loss until your smaller competitor is out of business.

Why is this considered illegal or unethical? This seems like a fairly legitimate tactical move to me.

It's like a war of attrition -- you allow yourself to suffer losses for the sake of ultimately winning. At least in this scenario, the main player is also slightly fucking themselves over, instead of just you.

[tomnipotent]

> Why is this considered illegal or unethical?

After competitors are knocked out of the market, the survivor can raise prices to above-market levels.

https://www.ftc.gov/tips-advice/competition-guidance/guide-a...

[gavinray]

Ah this is true, hadn't considered this.

It seems like there's a lot of this all the time though?

Everywhere I've lived, my only choice of ISP was Comcast. Whatever Comcast told me I needed to pay for internet, that's what I was going to pay lol.

For mobile phone providers, in the US your options are generally AT&T, Verizon, and T-Mobile, which I'm sure collude on prices and fix them. Same with Cloud services providers, etc

[romeros]

You can take a job and leave if they pay you more. That is fine. Microsoft isn't really only trying to gain talent. They want to drain the life blood out of their competition so they can get ahead. That intention is evil

[can16358p]

It's a tactic. A dark one for sure. But corporations aren't known for being philanthropist anyway even if they spend millions on PR to mask that image.

As long as there's no enforcement (and in a free capitalist economy it's hard to enforce this, and I personally think it shouldn't be enforced too) these will happen. The best thing that smaller companies can do is to adapt and play by the rules if they can't change them.

Not saying it's good or bad. It is just it is.

[FpUser]

>"The only "evil" in the situation is how easily some (most?) people will abandon you the moment they get a better opportunity."

To keep feeding bosses while loosing potential raise? Thanks but no thanks

[WJW]

Why do you think they only targeted Borland like that?

[Spooky23]

MS was trying to pivot away from their 90s platforms, and Borland was a potential destination for customers jumping ship from stuff like VB.

It was a different time. Even dinosaurs like IBM were still competitive in some verticals.

[wombatmobile]

Because the objective of Microsoft's recruitment was not just to acquire talent, it was to diminish their leading competitor.

[CRConrad]

In a nutshell: Because Borland, more than anyone else, had hugely superior development tools (compilers and IDEs) for Windows.