Hacker News new | ask | show | jobs
by modulusshift 1655 days ago
So is this the fabled transition into COVID becoming the common cold? More infectious, less deadly?
2 comments

It turns out deadliness is a liability in the long term evolutionary success of most viruses!
As it turns out that’s a myth. AIDS, rabies, measles, Ebola, Marburg, Hep A/B/C: none of these viruses have gotten milder, in 60+ years of evolution. There are Egyptian mummies showing signs of smallpox, a disease that killed 350,000,000 people in the 20th century, more than two millennia later.

It’s also quite obvious, mechanistically: COVID doesn’t lose many infections by eventually killing the patient who, by then, is obviously sick and most often in the hospital. It gets 80%+ of retransmission even before symptoms appear, removing all evolutionary pressure from the later stages.

> It’s also quite obvious, mechanistically: COVID doesn’t lose many infections by eventually killing the patient who, by then, is obviously sick and most often in the hospital.

But viruses spread in the real world not some hypothetical lab. In the real world as viruses become deadlier they tend to provoke a much larger response from governments and populations, both in terms of prevention and vaccines/cures/treatments. That's why there's a lot more money spent on potential HIV vaccines than on vaccines for the common cold. Being deadlier is a distinct disadvantage if you're a virus trying to survive for the long haul.

So how does Omicron have any advantage, right now, from that supposed difference? Wouldn’t every mild strain just suffer from governments’ efforts targeting the bad strains, which ruin it for all the others? Note that any future benefits cannot explain evolutionary changes in the present because viruses don’t strategize.
It can have advantages relative to other strains if the same techniques are used against them all.
None of them are the same family as other viruses which cause the common cold.

I doubt the top epidemiologists are spreading myths.

The "unusual" cases where covid is causing death might not be enough, no. The fact that it causes people to stay at home however could be.

So… the new goalpost is, “top epidemiologist say that there is a pattern of common-cold-viruses to get milder with time”?

Do any of them have names? (Either the viruses or the epidemiologists)

And that’s supposedly because… these common cold viruses were just too quick to kill their victims, at first?

HIV is evolving to a milder for : https://www.bbc.com/news/health-30254697
> AIDS, rabies, measles, Ebola, Marburg, Hep A/B/C

But those viruses don't generally spread very fast because of their severity.

Long-term disability of the host, however, affects them not at all.
Depends if healthy hosts are better at spreading, however all this depends on the selection pressures in the short term.

A virus probably doesn’t ‘care’ that much about a 1% host death rate in the short term.

No, deadliness doesn't really matter. What matters is how many people in infected person can infect before symptoms become too severe. Covid has a rather long period where patients are infectious while showing no symptoms at all, so it's already very good at that game.
Someone should let smallpox and anthrax in on this knowledge.
What smallpox? It's been eradicated.
The reason it’s eradicated is entirely due to vaccinations and the unique fact it had no animal reservoirs.

Prior to that, it was both very deadly and very contagious. Those facts were not hurting it.

Those attributes did not make it evolutionarily weak unless you count motivating people to make vaccines.

What is your point?

It depends on whether you consider vaccines and human intervention as part of the 'natural' feedback process that tends to make viruses less severe.

In other words, the high-level theory is that more severe viruses either kill their hosts, or make them so sick that they stop interacting with other potential hosts. A form of social distancing, if you will.

In both cases, the virus is triggering some form of behavior change in its host that reduces its reproduction, providing evolutionary pressure towards milder viruses.

One could argue that the development and wide distribution of a vaccine is just one form of host behavior change, and should be factored in.

And the reason we pursued vaccination rigorously enough to eradicate it was because as you say it is very deadly and very contagious.

Something with a mortality rate of 30+% and kills children at orders of magnitude higher rate than COVID has is far easier to convince the world populace to vaccinate for than something with 1-2 order of magnitude lower CFR.

So you can most 100%, certainly say, it was eradicated because it is so deadly. If only say 0.5% of people died from it, disproportionately the elderly those with comorbidities, eradicating smallpox would have been a hell of a lot harder to get worldwide vaccinations on board. A hell of a lot.

I don't think they're disagreeing with you, just saying that one cannot "ask smallpox" because it's already eradicated.
Smallpox still exists as lab samples. It's in virus prison. It's not dead.
Anthrax is bacterial
No. The transition you're talking about is a general tendency in viruses, not some kind of rule. SARS-CoV-2 seems to avoid it, in fact, due to its tendency to spread before people even have symptoms.

It's honestly too early to tell what the characteristics of Omicron are, there's just not enough data. Some anecdotes look positive, but mostly what we're seeing is the media going nuts trying to say something when the responsible thing to do is say nothing and wait.

Well, there is not enough data for _simple_ answers yet (and people like simple, so the media likes simple; scientists also like simple).

But there is a lot of data, it is just hard to interpret, even for experts (which I'm not): It is currently summer in South Africa, but there was a summer wave last year. "Around 60-70% of South Africans have already had a Covid-19 infection" (from another comment). Age distribution. How fast omicron is spreading and why. How many are vaccinated (once, twice,...). How many breakthrough infections. Delta and other variants are spreading faster than the previous mostly due to higher viral load. Omicron seems to have has higher viral load. Omicron also binds to ACE2. What is the typical delay between infection and hospital / ICU admission. Some of this is discussed e.g. in https://yourlocalepidemiologist.substack.com/p/omicron-were-...

I understand that the media doesn't just stay silent. What I'm missing from them is in-depth and up-to-date info, with error bars. They can do that for weather forecasts, they should also be able to do this for omicron.