[nikkwong]

Agreed with your sentiment that there needs to be some due process for these companies. Amazon has been holding $24,000 of my seller accounts proceeds for a year now stating that I "violated their TOS" by using the same IP address as my girlfriend uses (who was also an Amazon Seller). Both my and her accounts had perfect selling histories; weren't selling anything against tos, etc.

I've been wanting to take them to court over it; but most lawyers have quoted me at the process costing ~$8-9k; which, I'm terrified to be on the hook for if I lose. (I guess I did violate their TOS? But if that is their TOS, it's wildly stupid and should be illegal/not hold up in court).

So, they just have the money I use to buy food for me and my family and there is nothing I can do about it. The level of stress it's brought me over the last year...has been unimaginable for me if I were to ponder it before the situation occurred.

I still always have the hope that I'll recover it some time, some how, if consumer regulations change or if Elizabeth Warren gets her way. But for now it's me against them and they clearly are making whatever calls they want.

[neilv]

Did you try consulting some government authorities, about your case specifically?

$24K is a lot of money for most small businesses (or family side gigs), and most people can't afford to out-lawyer a huge company. Fortunately, one of the ideal roles of government is to protect the small from the large.

Were it me, since I'm in the US, but don't know which government authority would be most appropriate or effective, I'd probably first try my state AG's office. I'd ask if they're interested in this, and could look into it, or if they could suggest what other authority to ask.

If you ran out of topical government authorities, I suppose you could then contact your Congressperson's office, which could be a wildcard hero.

(The fashion is to Tweet one's way to customer service, but I still believe that government institutions can work.)

[nikkwong]

I guess this is my version of tweeting into the void hoping that someone helps me figure out what to do :).

It is a lot of money.

It's funny because I am from and live in Seattle; and post of the local political will currently is against Amazon, but I don't know if that would work in my favor. I actually tried to contact the AG before and got a "we'll get back to you" and didn't hear anything. I didn't follow up because I didn't know if helping in a situation like this was part of their wheelhouse. I guess I'll pose the question to them again alongside the more general question of whether it's relevant to their office or not. Thank you!

[kingcharles]

I wonder what would happen if you went to Amazon's lobby and chained yourself to something solid? Would at least get some press. The only way to get these sorts of things fixed now is to have a large megaphone.

[nikkwong]

Don't tempt me.

They are constantly trying to hire me as a SDE. I'm this close to taking it so I can get inside and start raising hell about this.

[dylan604]

State Attorneys Genral love this kind of stuff rather than a city level prosecutor. Much more clout at the state level, and it's a great way to get their names in the news on their way to governor.

[yyyk]

>I've been wanting to take them to court over it; but most lawyers have quoted me at the process costing ~$8-9k; which, I'm terrified to be on the hook for if I lose.

You could try to crowdfund a lawsuit (promise to donate the crowdfunding to a charity if you win and get costs). I suspect more than a few Sellers would like to get back at Amazon.

[nikkwong]

That's an interesting idea. However, I am terrified that if I do show up in court and do lose for whatever reason, then I will forever lose my chance at recuperating the funds. Maybe someday, they will realize that banning me was an error or the laws will change, and the decision will be reversed and the funds will be disbursed to me. I don't want to do something dumb and lose that opportunity. I've actually had a successful crowdfunding campaign in the past, but I do feel like raising money for something like this would just be shouting at a wall.

[yyyk]

IMHO, even if the rules do change someday, it's not likely Amazon would return the money: it's an administrative burden going over old records of Sellers that might not even be alive anymore, and which boss which like to make his department look worse in the financial reports just to refund some Seller which must have forgot about their money?

It's much more likely Amazon will return the money if the ban is undone, after all, undoing it is basically admitting wrongdoing. However they haven't done it so far; Perhaps they feel they were right to ban you?

Well, it's easy for me to suggest action when I won't have to do the work. It's your money after all. I hope whatever you choose will work for you.

[nikkwong]

Well, I have a lot of records (screenshots in the app, downloaded reports, etc); and I am paying attention closely to the news around antitrust and other items affecting amazon sellers so I believe I'd know if something were to change here.

I don't think they feel right or wrong. I have talked to multiple customer support agents who have told me that I will get the money; or that they want to help me get it, but they have to forward it to X team and that team has to forward it to Y team and then nothing just ever gets done because somewhere down the line a team stops following through or whatever.

They don't feel any way about it. They are simply indifferent. It's a deal so insignificant to them that they don't even notice it even though it's been the #1 or #2 (next to my job) the center of attention for me over the last year.

[Retric]

You are limited in how far back you can sue for damages. Running out of time is vastly more likely than Amazon to suddenly decide to hand you 24k.

[scrollaway]

Did you do the "cheap" first step? Which is to say: pay a lawyer $300 to write a threatening letter, asking for the ban to be undone and immediate return of the funds.

[TheSocialAndrew]

They almost definitely have an arbitration clause in the agreement, since companies like Amazon, eBay, Airbnb wish to avoid going to court altogether so as not to establish a precedent. This could be favorable to you because they are more likely to settle without either party incurring a lot in legal expenses, but on the other hand it's likely that the arbitration clause asks that each party split the arbitration cost (typically under $5,000 each) regardless of the outcome.

I'm not an attorney but I've dealt with situations like yours. If I were you, I would pursue the arbitration because they are likely to settle.

[nikkwong]

Yeah, I have talked to other sellers and lawyers and Amazon would take it to arbitration if I decide to pursue. I believe the cost of going to arbitration against them is $8000 in Seattle; because I have to pay the arbitrator, my own lawyer and other related fees. I should have specified above that I'd be going to arbitration against them and not to court--I didn't expect anyone to read my comment.

Unfortunately though, I've heard from most sellers in a similar situation that Amazon almost always wins in these arbitration cases. I'm not sure if that's true or not but the amazon sellers forums are ominous on this point. I posted this question there a month ago [0] and invoked a lively debate; but the gist was that it's risky and I could easily expect to lose. How unfair is that.

Maybe everyone on the forum is wrong though and they would be likely to settle. I honestly have no idea because I've heard every manner of different answers.

https://sellercentral.amazon.com/forums/t/suing-amazon-for-n...

[kingcharles]

I expect Amazon to bring an entire legion of lawyers against you in a situation like this and basically bury the arbitrator in paperwork.

Does the contract say if Amazon would have to pay all your fees if you win? Or would you be out either way. Usually in court in the USA you often lose all your legal costs even if you do win.

[nikkwong]

I feel like it would probably somehow go poorly like you're outlining. I have a naive version in my head as to how this could work out well; but I imagine in reality that this would be as nightmarish and stressful as possible, ending in a loss and putting me even further into the hole financially.

It's just so messed up. $24K of my money that they're holding; that's not all profit for me. It probably cost me at least $12K to generate that $24k. So I'm already so far in the hole that I can't afford to keep going deeper.

[wombat-man]

You're not going to go from 0 to $8k in legal expenses that quickly.

See if you can find a lawyer that you can trust, ideally one who has experience with this kinda thing to give you an opinion.

A good lawyer will be frank about whether or not the cost to engage is worth it. Others are probably correct in saying there is probably an arbitration clause involved.

You might just find that a letter from a lawyer might lead Amazon to reconsider their decision to hold your funds.

Also I'd be wary of lawyers quoting you a flat fee like 8k to "take care of it". I had to deal with a completely different legal issue several years ago. Some lawyers gave an up front figure of like $5k-$9k or something. Ended up consulting with an attorney at an agreed hourly rate of ~$300/hr or something. Ended up using less than an hour of his actual time to consider the situation and give me legal advice. Ended up only paying a few hundred for the whole thing.

[ta988]

Do crowdfunding and you'll get help. At least mine.

[nikkwong]

That is very kind of you, thank you!

[ViViDboarder]

What is the TOS that you’re violating? Are you responsible for someone else using the same internet connection somehow?

[tyingq]

Check the limits for small claims court in your state. Some of them go up to 20-25k.

[nikkwong]

Thanks; unfortunately I think it's only $10,000 in washington state.

[dylan604]

I had just posted up thread a recommendation about contacting your state AG about this kind of situation. However, if you're in Washington State, the state AG might not be too interested in taking on a large employer in their state. Or maybe they'd be even more motivated riding the anti-AMZN wave.???

[nikkwong]

Not only a large employer; the largest. What an unfortunate coincidence for me then. The anti-amazon sentiment is real, maybe I should wait for their next large PR fiasco and try to ride that wave. Thanks for the tip, I will still pursue it and see if it goes anywhere.

[Handytinge]

How fucked is your government if either of these things are a deciding factor around helping a wronged citizen?

[tyingq]

I wonder if you could file different small claims suits for logical parts of the money they are holding, like one for Q1 earned revenue, another for Q2 earned revenue, etc.

That would be more leverage in that they would have to send a lawyer to every one of them.