[napmo]

The whole point of your comment is wrong. Israel may be considered a democracy, but only for the so-called "chosen people"; This so-called democracy which is based on racial purity and militarism is in fact a form of fascism, and not a democracy in any way. And the main reason for some of the countries in the middle east to become enemies of the US is the blind support of US for the Israel to occupy the land of Palestine and commit war crimes. Occupying other people's land, torturing and killing them, and then claiming to be a democracy is quite laughable claim by Israelis.

[Eelongate]

There is also the matter of "the one democratic state in a region" being BS, or incredibly disingenuous at best. Even if you don't count Lebanon as a democracy (presumably not counted because Israel and Hezbollah hate each other) there is the matter of America's role in toppling other democratic governments in the region, particularly Iran in 1953. Furthermore, America seems to have no trouble cooperating with other monarchies around the world, so the premise of America only being able to cooperate with democracies is nonsense. What's so heinous about Jordan being a constitutional monarchy? Nothing really, it certainly didn't stop America from defending Kuwait (also a constitutional monarchy) when Iraq invaded.

[rudimental]

This is what I gather with some research, though I’m no expert and would appreciate more information if anyone has it.

If Tunisia is “in the region” (depends on the region being discussed), then Tunisia is starting to make the claim that Israel is the only strong democracy in the region false. That being said, Tunisia’s situation isn’t doing much to change the claim that Israel is the most democratic country in the region, and was the only one for many decades.

Lebanon is one of the most democratic countries in the region. It has regular elections - though I can’t tell how free and fair they are. It seems they are but there are accusations of bribes and corruption in Lebanon in general so likely that would spill into elections (see https://www.nytimes.com/2021/10/28/magazine/corruption-leban...). Lebanon has relatively diverse political parties, citizens have entrenched rights, general freedom of speech. Anti-government protests seem somewhat allowed (with some accusations of suppression and some violent response).

That being said, it’s not just animosity between Israel and Hezbollah that lead people to considering it less of a democracy or somewhere less than flawed democracy on the spectrum of democracy into something (though that could play a role). It’s presumably also paramilitary organizations like Hezbollah not being subject to civilian rule. Also that not anyone can be president, or prime minister or president of parliament, due to agreements between groups in Lebanon that help with stability.

America cooperates daily with non-democracies. Did anyone claim that America can only cooperate with countries that are democracies? I could imagine someone arguing convincingly that all else being equal, America would prefer close ties and cooperation with democracies (for various reasons). In practice, all else is rarely equal. You don't always get to partner with those who you feel have the same values (real or aspirational), or are generally looked on favorably by the world. There is lots of realpolitik in geopolitics.

[rudimental]

Is America not a democracy because Canadian citizens and Mexican citizens that aren't also American citizens can't vote in elections?

[runarberg]

Arguably, yes. Or at least USA are lacking in universal suffrage while they don’t allow long time residents to vote because they lack citizenship.

This is actually a fault in quite a lot of western democracies but USA is actually worse at this the the average democracy. Contrary to most European democracies, foreign citizens are not even allowed to vote in primaries or local elections in the USA.

Off course USA has more problems with how they grant voting rights the just the lack of rights to vote for foreigners, this includes prisoners in many states, but also access to voting and voting registration, as well as disproportionate representation from election outcomes which reflects actual ballot counts poorly. All of this adds to make the USA a rather lacking in democracy.

[rudimental]

You bring up some reasonable points.

Argue the case. If you just did, it’s not a convincing one.

First, note I didn’t say long term residents of America. Just Canadian or Mexican citizens in general (be they long term residents of the US or not).

You may say it’s different. Maybe. Then just talk about those that aren’t long term residents.

The point here is equally true of citizens of Armenia, Vietnam, anywhere else (and I would say those that reside in America long term, or not) that aren’t US citizens. If they can’t vote in US elections, how can we consider the US a democracy?

Is democracy a binary? If so, is America one, or not one? At least is it closer to being one, or not being one?

Is democracy a spectrum? If so, where is America on the spectrum? Close to pure perfect democracy, or on the opposite end, close to the complete opposite of that? Or somewhere in the middle? You say its lacking. Where is that on the spectrum? What other countries are near it?

These types of discussion often happen around abstract, nebulous concepts like democracy, justice, good. Generally when they aren’t defined well by any participants.

If your point is the US could be more of a democracy, maybe. But even more so, it could be much less of one.

[runarberg]

I see your point now, sorry I misunderstood.

There is a fundamental difference though. Canada and Mexico are sovereign nations with their own national assemblies recognized fully by the USA. The same can not be said about Israel’s recognition of Palestine.

But USA is not fault free here either, as it does not grant federal representation to a portion of its citizens living in certain districts and territories (including DC, Puerto Rico, Guam, etc.) This is a pretty serious gap in its democracy as has been pointed out by these citizens and others.

Israel is actually infinitely worse here though, not only do Palestinians lack the rights to vote, but they also lack many other rights you would expect in a democracy. Such as the rights to a fair trial, the rights to your possessions, the rights to live without a threat of violence from the state, etc. So if it can be argued that the USA has lax democracy, then it is easy to argue that Israels democracy is seriously flawed.

[rudimental]

Being a sovereign nation with its own national assemblies fully recognized isn't required.

Israel recognizes the Palestinian Authority or the Palestinian Liberation Organization as the political body responsible for certain agreed upon things including Palestinian elections. They also recognize Hamas as the ruling political entity in Gaza (though I am not sure how formal that is).

My point is about non-citizens. Stateless or otherwise. Citizens of Israel, be they Jewish, Muslim, Christian, Baháʼí, Palestinian, Russian, American, French, whatever, (more or less as far as I know) can vote in Israeli elections. Non-citizens can't. Similar to the US.

You mentioned some situations in which in the US, citizens can't vote (for example those convicted of felony crimes). Presumably situations like this occur in Israel and other democracies as well - I know this about some places but not all.

To be perfectly clear - Palestinians lack the right to vote in Israeli elections if they are not Israeli citizens. Palestinians that are Israeli citizens have full rights to vote like other Israeli citizens. And the other rights assured to citizens of Israel. Are they always fully fulfilled? No. Like every other country. But generally yes.

Citizens of Mexico, Canada, Spain, Vietnam, Armenia, etc. lack the right to vote in American elections if they are not American citizens. Does this make America not a democracy? Or substantially less of one?

My point isn't really about the US, and is really about Israel.

You have to tacitly admit Israel and the US are democracies, to argue they are not perfect democracies (in your words "flawed").

[runarberg]

> You have to tacitly admit Israel and the US are democracies, to argue they are not perfect democracies (in your words "flawed").

This is a common logical fallacy. “You have to admit the existence God in order to not believe in him.” You could read my post as saying that: If Israel is a democracy, then it has a serious flaw. This is a value judgement on the state of democracy in Israel, not a simple binary: If Israel has democracy then Israel is good, otherwise it is bad.

Now, whether foreign citizen can vote in a country they do not reside in I believe this is misleading the debate. If I hadn’t misunderstood your original point I probably wouldn’t have engage at all. But since I am already engaged I might as well continue (sunken cost fallacy).

Both the Mexican and the Canadian governments have full (or near full) control of their own territory, the same can not be said about the Palestinian Authority as their territories are constantly being encroached on by Israel settlers, sometimes with the permission of the Israeli authorities, and always without their interference. There is also the “puppet” nature of the Palestinian authority. In 2006 when the “wrong” party won a majority, they were promptly invaded by the Israel Military. That doesn’t sound very sovereign to me. There is no world where the USA military would invade Mexico after they would elect a government which the USA didn’t agree with.

No, Mexican relations to USA is not remotely comparable. That is unless you consider Palestine to be a completely separate and autonomous from Israel, which I kind of doubt.

[tingletech]

right, like was South Africa a democracy during apartheid?