Both Billie Jean King, the founder of WTA, and Novak Djokovic support WTA’s announcement [1].
“I applaud Steve Simon and the WTA leadership for taking a strong stand on defending human rights in China and around the world,” said Billie Jean King. “The WTA is on the right side of history in supporting our players. This is another reason why women’s tennis is the leader in women’s sports.”
Novak Djokovic, World No 1 and cofounder of the Professional Tennis Players Association, said he fully supported the WTA’s stance, and everyone including the Professional Tennis Players Association (PTPA) and the Association of Tennis Professionals (ATP) was “asking for clarity on what is going on”.
“We don’t have enough information and I think it’s a very bold, very courageous stance from WTA,” he told reporters.
Even IOC calls the Peng Shuai situation ‘humanitarian matters’ that they would proceed with “quiet diplomacy” [1]. Short of calling this a hostage situation, this is definitely not normal.
IOC is the only entity outside China which contacted Peng Shuai, whose external communication is under heavy control by China, so it may be harder for others to see what is going on.
Also, WTA is calling for an investigation into a #MeToo, which arguably falls under human rights.
Wow! Compare this to Hollywood, always telling us how to think and behave but otherwise happy to turn a blind eye on Uighyrs etc if they can sell a few more tickets.
If forced to chose a location to do business, I have a feeling Hollywood would opt to pack up and relocate to China.
Their leaders don’t see anything other than the number of humans they can get in front of their movies, and 1.4 billion people is a whole lot more than 300ish million.
The difference is that that the WTA actually has leverage on China because China loses legitimacy in sports from this decision. No Chinese woman can ever be the best tennis player anymore. The NBA and John Cena actually have negative leverage on China. Both are purely American exports, so getting them banned in China only serves to widen the trade imbalance. China would love to find an excuse to do so.
The NBA has orders of magnitude more leverage than women's tennis. There's a serious number of NBA fans in China who would be pissed if it were banned.
> No Chinese woman can ever be the best tennis player anymore.
China already struggles mightily in both men's and women's tennis. They don't have any player in men's or women's that cracks the top 100.
It's a good thing you can pirate the NBA or use a VPN. Less committed fans will simply accept that China just censor the NBA for telling "lies." You can't pirate your way into hosting a international tournament.
That's closer, but I don't think that's quite the same. Esports seems to serve more so as marketing for videogames. The CCP is trying to discourage its population from playing videogames, so they doubt that they care if they lose out on American ones. Also, esports don't have nearly the prestige of physical sports at the moment, though that could change in the future.
In terms of leverage on China, I think Apple has a lot, since they employ a lot in China. Although the next question is, can they afford (of the order of) 1/3 of their revenue?
This is where we need to make Apple remember 2/3 can evaporate and make them worst off then losing 1/3. Yeah 2/3 won't go off completely. But so is that 1/3. The whole point is that as international community we need to vote properly with our wallets to make them behave. Apple cancelled? Now that is a trend that Steve wouldn't even thought of back then.
Unfortunately, "China" holds grudges (in quotes, because I suspect it might not even be the government, but different officials wanting to appear as good citizens to the government, and definitely not Chinese people), so it won't be that easy: Simon will likely need to step down (though he's kinda being diplomatic in only "wanting answers", not putting particular blame on anyone, but he's still pretty adamant).
Witness NBA-Houston Rockets case which caused Houston Rockets games to be blacked out for 15 months even though Morey moved on from Houston late in 2020 after tweeting in support of Hong Kong protests early in the year.
What did CCTV do? Ban 76ers NBA games who are the current employer for Morey.
Kudos! As oblivious bystander and no real tennis-knowledge apart from how the game is played, how much pressure will this put on China? How much weight does WTA carry? It will no doubt cause some media coverage no matter the outcome.
I don't see the chinesse people raising against CCP for this. Not even if the olympics are cancelled.
It's well-known that CCP leaders are untouchable in China just like Kim is untouchable in NK.
On the other hand if you look a bit to our politics, how affected was Trump by the rape/harrasment accusations? Certainly a big part of population would still vote for him even if the rape would be recorded.
I don't defend China or CCP but we should put things in perspective.
The most disturbing issue in China I believe is the censorship and persecution of the victims.
> I don't see the chinesse people raising against CCP for this.
There doesn't need to be a popular riseup. Zhang Gaoli's enemies in the CCP now have some ammunition they can use to convince the people in the CCP who don't give a shit about Zhang Whoever that it's best to get rid of him. Then it's all up to how many true allies he has. (Probably not many, as a has-been.)
I've seen a lot of reporting on Peng Shuai's public appearances or lack thereof, but little on Zhang Gaoli's whereabouts. My guess is that he's under house arrest while the party leadership decides how to deal with him.
No CCP leader is untouchable; they're all reliant on the support of their allies to remain in power. If that support ever runs out, they quickly find themselves stripped of all titles, at the wrong end of a corruption investigation and risk getting executed in the end.
In theory, that could be true. It could even be that China is doing due diligence and trying to avoid tarnishing a reputation of an individual before enough evidence is collected: he's probably lost the support even if everything that happened was deemed "consensual" (not sure if you've read the original message from Peng, but there was a description of an encounter where his wife was in a room next door: I can't imagine that being considered commendable in any way).
But they would probably mention that because this has become such a hot topic: "investigations into Peng's accusations are ongoing" should not be such a hard thing to mutter out.
But even if they did do something proper yet invisible, the obvious pressure on Peng to withdraw her claims and act as if nothing happened are alarming. As is the attempt to rewrite history of the case. They did not even make her say something like "I was under duress/drunk/whatever" or "somebody else stole my phone and wrote that": there is obviously some respect for her public stature, but the main concern is with "health of the nation". By making it all a lie.
Here's a bit of evidence for the last statements, and it doesn't even include Gao Gang and Bo Xilai as major targets (though it does mention the latter):
Having her "disappeared" by the government is a step far beyond what usually happens in the West, but suppression of the victims in some way is still an extremely big problem and is what the whole "#metoo" movement was about.
Trump was a bit of a special case, for whatever reason. No other presidential candidacy would have made it thirty seconds beyond the "Grab 'em by the pussy" scandal.
He served his full second term, afaik, even after admitting to lying to the Supreme Court. Trump still has another go if he ever wins it (I doubt it, though).
It will probably turn into a non-event in China. As long as other entertainment is available, this is likely to be nothing but a blip.
People do not rise for entertainment, but only when they are seriously affected in their lives. Or when unfairness accumulates enough that they had enough — this will happen at some point in China, if they don't tone it down. But protesting today (and in the past) is a form of luxury: those most in need to protest their treatment usually have the smallest possibility of effectively running one (they are in a constant race to survive).
It's no accident that even throughout history, many protests and revolutions were led/supported by someone from the "elite" (rich, well-educated, plenty of spare time).
> Or when unfairness accumulates enough that they had enough — this will happen at some point in China, if they don't tone it down.
CCP has built a dissent management stack all the way from early indoctrination to continuous surveillance to Tiananmen style intervention/massacre if the need ever arises. Dissent will be crushed before it becomes a movement.
We're looking at one of the greatest threats to our freedom ever; this time they have nukes, reliable delivery mechanisms and a flourishing economy (which the Soviets lacked).
I have trust in the human race that they will reach a boiling point, and no mechanism can stop that from spiralling out — it's been like that throughout the history. I don't see nukes as of any use (nuking their own dissenting population would surely trigger a civil war: nobody will take that) — nukes are mostly there to deter external invaders (as soon as you use them, that deterring value is gone)!
Their economy is mostly based on inequality between the West and the rest (and internally, between poor regions and cities): as they are quickly catching up in salaries and standard of living, it will level off (sure, their domestic market is huge as well and gives them another few years or a decade).
I'd instead say that media-manipulation based on scientific exploration of the human mind and behaviour is a bigger threat to our freedom: we won't even know that we've lost it. Still, even in that case, I am sure enough people will see what's going on, and will be able to convince others of the bad sides of it.
Nah, it's clear eusocial species are more fit. Soon comrades in China will engineer a better human, incapable of dissent, working tirelessly for the glory of the Party. This man will rapidly outcompete the silly mono-animal organisms and nation-state slime molds and usher in a great era of eternal harmony.
> as they are quickly catching up in salaries and standard of living, it will level off (sure, their domestic market is huge as well and gives them another few years or a decade).
Extremely naive. There are plenty of dirt rich countries, countries way more well off than USA which are still completely totalitarian.
Basically, none of that convinces me that Chinese economy will continue to see exponential growth as their salaries get closer to Western salaries, and that it will not run into stagnation at that point. This was just a retort to a claim that China will continue to have prospering economy in foreseeable future which allows them to be more formidable and threatening to our freedom.
I am totally not an expert though, but country wealth (esp not those countries driven by natural resource exports) is not a good indicator of future economic performance: sure, it allows a country to pivot and prepare for the change better.
The better question is how much pressure does it put on other organisations when it comes to bowing to China? Or any other rich, not-so-democratic country like Saudi or Qatar, or...
Because now the WTA, by no means a small sports organisation, did what the IOC, FIFA, NBA, film studios,... didn't have the courage to do. And these orgs now don't have any excuse of doing nothing about those human rights abuses.
>And these orgs now don't have any excuse of doing nothing about those human rights abuses.
Money still exists. Real WTA test is to see if they continue suspension once post covid PRC opens up. PRC already cancelled WTA events prior to suspension, likely past 2022 pending on how covid pans out. Short term this is cost free marketting WTA. IOC, FIFA, NBA, film studios still has costs, and they still choose China.
China will ignore it and start their own tennis authority, inviting all of the belt-and-road nations to partake. In a way we're seeing the birth of a new "Warsaw Pact vs NATO" kind of thing.
That's definitely true for women around the world (including in China).
But while "silencing" is happening throughout the world for victims of sexual crimes (and we should work to stop this), what's happening to Peng is probably unrelated to the type of crime, but rather about who the perpetrator was (a highly-ranked CCP official).
She'd likely see the same fate if she talked about witnessing him do any other crime: it's most telling that not even World-known public figures like Peng can be considered safe from such intimidation.
Reaction to a scandal is one of those things where you really see the difference between a democracy, imperfect as it might be, and a tyrannical regime. In democracy, scandal brings disgrace and resignations; the office-holder has demonstrated to be morally unfit and lost his right to lead. In tyranny, you get silence and threats; the boss rules because he is the boss, not because of any moral superiority recognised by the population.
There was an official impeachment process. It didn't complete, but it was started iirc; I expect that, had Trump won another mandate on an even slighter majority, we would have heard much more about it. Also there were a lot of active reactions, official and unofficial, which were widely reported (civil servants withdrawing information, leaking all sorts of stories to the press, scrambling to correct his actions, etc etc).
Scandals can be survived even in democracy, for sure (Dick Cheney shot a man, Ted Kennedy killed a woman, etc etc), but the accused has to work hard for it. And you could say Trump didn't really survive them, since he was voted out at the first chance.
In this matter, I see very little nuance and perspicacity from WTA when dealing with people of a different culture both politically and otherwise.
In general WTA setting out terms to nation state is a very absurd situation. If the situation was reversed, American government would care zero bit to appear accountable to any foreign or international organisation.
But what is surprising is how WTAs take on this matter is taken as is without necessary skepticism. It is rather clear that WTA don't have first hand information on the subject to take a considered judgement.
Rather than make a blanket statement that people should be skeptical, can you provide a concrete reason why one should be skeptical in this case? I think most people here believe that victims of sexual assault should be able to come forward without fear of retribution. I’m curious what your counter argument is.
The thing is WTA is claiming to speak at the behest of someone with whom they don't have direct contact. In certain aspects what WTA is doing is crossing boundaries of fair behaviour. Imagine if it was a similar allegation made by an American player, would the WTA would go guns blazing if they didn't have direct communication with the individual.
Where there is a need for circumspection, and for nuance , WTA has jumped into the fray speaking of absolutes.
Has WTA made good faith attempts like despatching its delegates to China and understand first hand the situation?
Frankly if you examine the available details, WTA only has a flimsy argument.
And also imagine what could happen next. It could be very much possible for the Chinese to organise a video call for example with Boris Johnson, in which Peng will castigate WTA for invading her privacy, and not respecting her need to stay away from public gaze, etc..
The WTA has made numerous attempts to contact Peng, and notified the government that the WTA would pull out of China unless they could talk to her and be assured of her freedom. If your argument is predicated on the WTA not making an effort to contact Peng, then you’re misinformed and just wrong.
Have they made a determined and good faith attempt to do so? Sending out emails and social media call outs isn't that serious of an effort. Can't WTA afford to send somebody to China and see for themselves? Have they made an attempt at that?
WTA seems to be looking for reasons to burn bridges, rather.
Point is WTA needs to make abundantly clear the steps they have taken of their own accord to address their concerns rather than focusing mostly on casting aspersions.
>Have they made a determined and good faith attempt to do so? Sending out emails and social media call outs isn't that serious of an effort
Her handlers had her do a video call with the IOC president, to placate international demands while only letting her contact someone who has a financial interest in sweeping this under the rug.
The proof-of-life issued by the Chinese government also shows that they're aware of these concerns.
Joe Pompliano thinks the WTA will lose 1/3 of their revenue [2].
[2]: https://twitter.com/JoePompliano/status/1466142522628059144