[andrew_eit]

Does anyone have any good arguments for why we lack any serious blue-chip competitors in the EU?

I mean we have things like Spotify and SAP (though they're b2b). But I really can't see any parallels with the US tech industry. There really is no company that comes to mind in the EU where I think "yeah that's where all the software engineers want to go to".

Also what I find super weird is that actually, a lot of the other industries are providing the golden ticket type jobs for SDEs that, in the US, would be reserved for FAANG. For example VW has some pretty great Digital "labs", pay is quite high, and they're even one of the biggest forces investing in quantum research, funding phd programmes and the like.

[lrem]

What we're missing is the valley, where huge piles of cash are in search of anywhere to go to. Where as little as a sales pitch can give you backing to hire fifty people for two years... After which everyone figures out the idea wasn't any good, investors didn't win on this ticket. And you proceed to think of your next pitch, with nobody holding the previous failure against you.

Or, so I've heard.

[dogma1138]

Much of Europe came late to the party, it’s hard to start a startup especially on the continent and even harder to get funding.

The UK is doing alright especially around fintech and some of the more academic startup tho the latter tends to be bought up rather quickly.

The costs of starting a company and the overall employment culture is quite antithetical to the whole fail fast startup culture. The cost of failure is substantially higher than in the US and the cost of scaling up astronomically higher and this is before you need to deal with unions and work councils.

The big nations in Europe as in France and Germany are trying to catch up but the next most likely spot would be the likes of Estonia followed up by Croatia.

Estonia is trying to become the Israel of Europe tech wise and they are on the right path.

Both Estonia and Croatia also have the digital nomad visa which allows you to come and work remotely from there for a whole year tax free, they hope that it would attract some talent that would like to settle and start companies there.

Estonia is especially well situated no corporate tax on unless the money leaves the country or is taken out as dividends, huge tax breaks on everything else and a flat 20% income tax rate that can attract a lot of tech talent from the rest of Europe.

Salaries in Europe are rising in tech they are still not anywhere near the US with the exception of some top talent in London and contracting but with 50% marginal tax rates and little to no compensation in the form of stock retaining top talent is difficult in this relatively mobile economy.

I’ve seen offers as high as €150K for senior self contributors and technical managers coming out of Estonia not many but a few, and even at half of that you’ll still be making most likely more than in Germany after tax.

[jq-r]

> Both Estonia and Croatia also have the digital nomad visa which allows you to come and work remotely from there for a whole year tax free, they hope that it would attract some talent that would like to settle and start companies there.

Not sure how you got Croatia on a map of startups. That digital nomad thing is nothing more than a few nice phrases made to look like its some heaven for IT companies. It couldn't be further from the truth.

The taxes and bureaucracy roadblocks on the individuals and companies are one of the highest in the world. One must be completely crazy to come over for some (non-existing) startup (or even established) scene. The government doesn't give a rat's ass about this industry.

The only reason why there are a lot of people in this industry working for foreign companies is that the salaries are quite low (compared to rest of the EU) but still considerable better than a median domestic salary. But as the last census is going to show (there were already some leaked statistics) the young people are leaving in droves and the shit is no joke as the population is rapidly decreasing. Why work here for say double the median salary (a little less than 1K euro) for some foreign company, when you can emigrate and make at least 7 times more? But more truthfully, people are leaving because they cannot even get a bit more than half of the average salary.

So if I were thinking of opening a startup, it would be pretty much anywhere else but here, it just doesn't make any economical sense.

[rPlayer6554]

I see so many comments about how great the EU is v.s. the US based on how much the government provides. How can you be surprised that people and corporations in the EU aren't going to have the same drive as US companies to be competitive? E.U. companies do well with long, incremental growth (German cars are great) but not with innovation and fast growth.

[ClumsyPilot]

"How can you be surprised that people and corporations in the EU aren't going to have the same drive as US companies to be competitive?"

So your theory is "the less a person has, the more motivated and productive they are". Surely some poverty striken nation like Somalia should be pinnacle of productivity?

Or do you need infrastructure and education, perhaps lets try Russia, mexico?

If that's still not good enough, what makes you believe thay the sweetspot of support is the US?

Or could an alternative, much simpler theory be true, that the country that's the world's money printing press and global center of capital has some kind of advantage?

[rPlayer6554]

> the less a person has, the more motivated and productive they are

Absolutely not. I'm saying that high tax rates and high levels of direct government benefits from those taxes stifles innovation by reducing the incentives to be innovative.

Does it make for an "equal society." Sure. But that also means that you don't reward people with innovative ideas or who go way above and beyond. Sure they could work their ass off to make their idea a reality....or they could just not. It's not like they'll get massively rewarded for it. Plus the government probably gives them what they need already.

Yes there is a sweet spot and infrastructure is important. If the government doesn't do anything people die on the streets which is A. Inhuman B. Makes people more concerned about not dying over anything else. I also think promoting good education is really important so you give people a path from nothing to something. Who cares if you make it rewarding to succeed if it's absolutely impossible from birth for some people.

I can only say the US is the closest sweet spot just by the results. It's absolutely not perfect, but the US is specifically known for its Innovation and productivity.

[ClumsyPilot]

"I can only say the US is the closest sweet spot just by the results"

You are putting together a social hypothesis you like, and then trying to find evidence that fits.

There a number of problems with this: A - there are alternative theories that make just as much sence, so whay makes your hypothesis preffered?

B - Norway has higher productivity than US and has the highest amiunt of social suplort in the world, surely that disproves your theory?

https://time.com/4621185/worker-productivity-countries/

[lttlrck]

Considering it's size and how heterogeneous it is compared to rest of the top 5 the US seems to be remarkable.

[bryan_w]

Europe may not be able to compete, but at least they get 4 months mandatory vacation a year and 5 years of paternity leave.

[ClumsyPilot]

I wish we did have 4 months of vacation.

From the day you get your first job till the end of your career, you have about 2 years total to split between you wife, kids and aging parents that may pass away before you get to retire. This is quite sad actually, work for 40 year to earn 2 years of life

[kkjjkgjjgg]

How far along is the Texas Gigafactory in Texas? I think they started later than Berlin, but may finish first?

There may just be too much bureaucracy in Europe, too much socialism... People here don't want to be part of a company that does exciting things, they just want a well paid job they can't be fired from because the union protects them.

[andrew_eit]

" too much socialism"

This is a vague and exaggerated statement, it makes you sound quite biased. If we're going to argue in that direction then let me point out that China has "way more socialism" (as you put it) than Europe, yet their lightening speed in making advancements in their private tech sector, digitalisation and even scientific research such as computer vision and quantum computing puts even the US to shame.

"People here don't want to be part of a company that does exciting things"

Absolutely false. Have you ever spoken to anyone at a German car company? They live and die for the pride they have working with their "team". Same goes for other Mittelstand companies, employees tend to be very loyal and have a personal relationship with their company and product, even if it is as simple as a company making world-class pencils. Maybe this is because of all the "socialism" (i.e. reasonable amount of time off and workers rights and being treated like a human with a personal life)

That is not to say that there aren't groups of long-tenured 20 year+ employees at such corporations who occupy a cushy job with almost no chance of being fired. Yes they exist, and I've met them.

But I think you're trying to equate the mindset in Europe to the American ideal of the individual person doing something that 'CHANGES THE WORLD'. Europeans certainly dream and want to do exciting things that make the world a better place, but the way to do this isn't exclusively held by this radical capitalist view (I say this as a believer capitalism) that one man/woman with an idea can change the world. I think we take on a more longer-term view, taking the time to research, perfect one's craft and slowly make small steps of change that last longer. And I think this view and mindset is what drives so much medical and scientific innovation in Europe.

[kkjjkgjjgg]

OK point taken about China, even though I think it still is not clear how much they innovate by themselves and much they are just stealing, and how much they really still are socialist.

It seems they have a kind of dictatorship bent on exploiting their population to get ahead. Another example perhaps were the nazis who also made a lot of technical advances like building the first rockets. They presumably throw a lot of resources (manpower) at things, too, because they don't care about the individual.

The European variant of socialism is more like a class of leeches that simply wants to extract as much energy as possible from the unsuspecting population.

I live in Germany and I have worked for a big car company as a contractor. I think many big companies are very slow moving and excitement for new ideas is difficult in such an environment. Even the product I was working on was basically a huge expenditure to be able to comply with some government regulation (privacy laws regarding employee monitoring).

Yes, there are people here in Germany who are excited about technology and startups. They have to fight an uphill battle against all the regulation, though. And any successful company is regarded with suspicion. Also government jobs are very popular as they come with many perks. Here in Germany it might not yet be as bad as in other European countries, but the class of government employees is growing. A couple of years ago I read about Greece that ALL the elite students did expect to get comfortable government jobs. That would of course also suck away talent from innovative companies.

My other comment about the Gigafactories in Texas and Berlin was downvoted for some reason, but I really am curious. Which one will be finished first? The one in Texas was started at a later stage. I live nearby the Berlin one, so I hear a lot about the ridiculous regulation struggles they face.

Then again I read that some Tesla employee was awarded north of 100 million dollars because his colleagues supposedly called him racist things. So I worry about the future of the US, too,

[andrew_eit]

I agree with you actually about the Gigafactories and it won't surprise me if the Texas one finishes first.

And I also live in Germany and have worked for car companies as a contractor :) And believe me I am also quite exhausted by the slowness of so much of the industry and the old white opas running things. But at the same time I get the feeling that university-educated younger members of society really want this to change and want to participate actively in shaping their country.

I think I usually like to counter extreme positions for either approach (US-capitalist, fast moving approach vs German/European slower, more left leaning approach). I think our views might actually be quite similar, and I have actually been considering what life might be like in the US where people seem to really have no limits to their ambition and drive. I guess I just see both systems as useful in some ways and limited in others. I like the fact that in Germany, everyone has access to good education, health and a social safety net, and I am ok with that coming at the cost of maybe the country not being as disruptively innovative as it otherwise could be. On the other hand, I am extremely glad a place like the US exists, where some random south african dude can waltz into the Rocketry industry and the auto industry and simultaneously turn both on their heads in less than 2 decades.

Also what you said about Greece is pretty shocking. To be fair, it's very possible that in general the amount of people who really want to put their own blood, sweat and tears into in endeavour is actually quite small. A lot of people I know just want a contented life, which is fine, but I'd rather not have that at the expense of a meaningful, exciting career.