[IkmoIkmo]

Here in Amsterdam I feel it's the opposite. Next to the car roads we had beautiful biking infrastructure used by bikes going typically 10 to 15 km/h, averaging say 12km/h, used by virtually everyone, poor and rich, kids, students, parents, grandparents, there being more bikes than people in this city.

Now the bicycle lanes are taken over by e-bikes going 25km/h and sometimes (illegally, as these must be on the car road) 'speedbikes' going 45 km/h.

It used to be that if you go say 12km/h, virtually every other bike will also go that speed +/- 3 k/m. With a speed difference of only 3km/h, that meant two things: 1) overtaking each other happens, but only every now and then. And (2) you only need to watch a few metres behind you before overtaking, because no bike in the bike-lane could overtake you from further away at such small speed differences.

Now with e-bikes going 25, you're sharing a lane with people who're on average going twice as fast as you. That means you're being overtaken constantly. It also means overtaking yourself requires much more thought and you need to look much further behind you.

Overtaking is statistically the area where most accidents happen, increasing the frequency so much is causing a lot of issues. Second, the 2x as high speeds increase the brake distance by a lot, requires much faster reaction times, and increases the force and damage upon accidents.

It's making me less prone to cycle, and for my parents its becoming outright dangerous to share the bike lane with bikes going 2-3x his speed. My dad broke his hip last year biking already.

I'm super enthusiastic about electric bikes, it makes a lot of sense on many levels. But I'm also a bit scared of what the future holds. In Amsterdam the shift from bikes to e-bikes I feel is turning a great situation for everyone, into an even better situation for some (young e-bike users without issues) and a horrible situation for others (young children, elderly, those who get caught up in accidents)

There's a reason that in recent years in Amsterdam gas-powered and electric scooters were taken off the bike lane and a mandatory helmet was introduced. Yet when recreating such a scooter similarly with some pedals, it circumvents the regulation.

[cameronh90]

Why do adults cycle so slowly there though? 12km/h is a moderate running pace.

I actually find with my ebike, I cruise more slowly than with a regular bike. An ebike is heavier with bigger tyres but the assist cuts out at 25km/h and I can't push it much faster. Whereas with my regular bike, I typically cruise at 30-35kmh. And I'm fat with the cheapest bike I could find. Plenty of people overtake me (in London).

E-bikes make accelerating and hills much easier though.

[eythian]

> Why do adults cycle so slowly there though? 12km/h is a moderate running pace.

A couple of reasons. One is that it's a nice pace for getting to where you want to go without being all sweaty when you get there. Another is that the bikes are built for practicality, not performance. As such, they're cheap (so when they get stolen, it's annoying but not the end of the world), they often are single speed with coaster brakes (less to go wrong), heavy (so built solid), and comfortable (mine is like riding a couch.) You're also often biking with a swarm of other people and so just keeping the common pace is nicer.

I find that my average Amsterdam speed is about 15kph, and that's probably slightly above average, based on anecdotally passing more people than pass me.

If you're cruising on a non-electric bike at 30-35kph you're probably a lot fitter than is typical, or showing up a bit sweaty and worn out. On my 3-speed Gazelle that is very heavy but can also carry two people and a case or two of beer (though I did find the limit of that, so long as combined we're under about 170kg or so it's OK), I really only use the 3rd gear to do a fast burst probably up to 20-25kph in "oh no the ferry leaves in 3 minutes but it's normally a 5 minute ride" situations. But I feel it when I get there.

[stefs]

> Whereas with my regular bike, I typically cruise at 30-35kmh.

sorry, but i find that a bit hard to believe. i'm very fit and going 30-35km/h on my bike for distances any longer than sprints is quite hard.

[cameronh90]

35km/h may be a push but 30km/h is fairly easy to maintain for me. Perhaps you have a different style of bike? Mine is a city bike with very narrow wheels.

[wl]

Your bike might have issues, your posture might not be very aero, you might not be using your gears to maintain an efficient cadence, or your fitness isn't as good as you think. Play around with the following calculator: https://www.gribble.org/cycling/power_v_speed.html

Just using the default numbers of a 75 kg rider on a 7.7 kg bike with a frontal area of 0.5 m^2, C_d = 0.63, and drivetrain loss of 2%, maintaining 30 km/hr requires approximately 150 W of output. 35 km/hr, that goes up to 225 W. A functional threshold power (power one can sustain for an hour) of 200 W isn't exceptional.

Anecdotally, I have a lot of weight to lose and I can maintain an average moving speed of 30 km/hr on a mostly flat, 100 km course.

[stefs]

yes, on a mostly flat course i'd be able to keep it up too. maybe i misinterpreted it a bit, but i pictured original commenter cruising at 30+km/h _in london_ (city proper) on a city- or trekking bike.

during the summer my ftp was around 270 (~3.8w/kg) and i had a hard time staying close to 30km/h avg on a local bike path where one does have to stop and slow down occasionally for safety reasons (i.e. real world conditions - even though my computer pauses when i come to a full stop). in the city i can go 30-40km/h on my single speed if i ride on the road in car traffic, but on bike paths that's usually way too dangerous because of the speed difference to other cyclists and pedestrians.

sure, on tempus fugit i can go close to 40km/h for 100km with a TT bike.

[multjoy]

150w of a 200w FTP is tempo territory. That is a long way from being a cruising pace.

[cameronh90]

Maybe there's some misunderstanding about what I mean by cruising speed.

I mean it in the sense of the speed I pick when the road is clear ahead of me. Analogous to the cruising speed in an aeroplane, which is usually quite close to its max speed, but not quite.

I can sprint fast for short bursts, but 30km/h is for me comfortable to maintain indefinitely. My heart rate will be around 160 vs my resting of 45, max of 200 and 120 when walking.

[stefs]

ok sorry, in that case i misinterpreted you. i thought you meant you were able to keep up 30km/h averages "cruising" point-to-point through london, which, imo, would be a challenging feat for alleycat racers.

[IkmoIkmo]

I highly doubt you average 35 km/h on a regular bike, especially when overweight, and then regularly get overtaken as well, in a city.

It's simply an average. People ride bikes in Amsterdam in their everyday clothes for work or going to a club., they're not looking to build up a sweat but to get from A to B. Recreational biking is a different story and typically brings people outside the city in less busy wide lanes across nature without traffic, stop signs or double-parked cars, where none of this is an issue.

[cameronh90]

Not average, average is closer to 25km/h once I factor in accelerating, hills, getting stuck behind cyclists/cars, overtaking, etc. 15km/h if you factor in waiting at junctions and traffic lights. Overall I usually cycle to work slightly slower on an ebike than a road bike unless it's windy. I still prefer the ebike though.

30-35km/h (note it's a range) will be when I have a flat clear road in front of me, after I've got up to speed - hence cruising speed. 35 will be in good conditions only, 30 is a lot more comfortable and I can maintain that pretty much indefinitely unless it's windy. I can also do 30 on my ebike, but I get quickly exhausted because it's almost 30kg with thick tyres. Also I wear cargo shorts and t-shirt, nothing special, no lycra, no aerodynamic helmet or whatever. However, I do change my shirt when I get to the office. My usual goal is to keep up with the car traffic, which is usually around the 20mph limit on my route.

I do indeed get regularly overtaken, but I also regularly overtake. I would say I go faster than nearly all females and of course anyone on a rented bike or similar - but the lycra men on expensive bikes will always overtake me. I feel like I keep pace with the average young fit male, but that may be some kind of observation bias - for example noticing more being overtaken than overtaking.

Also although I'm obese, I'm in my early 30s and my cardio fitness is decent. I put that down entirely to cycling to work, as it's the only exercise I do! I also would describe it as recreational biking and it's an enjoyable, comfortable activity... but why would I want to waste time getting from A to B when I can go quicker?

[watwut]

> Why do adults cycle so slowly there though? 12km/h is a moderate running pace.

It is like asking why adults dont you run to work or grocery store. I don't run to work or grocery store. I walk.

[cameronh90]

Why not indeed? Quite a lot of people do exactly that. The "run commute" is increasing in popularity here, or at least it was until covid.

At least for me personally, the reason I don't is that I'm not fit enough and it would hurt my hypermobile knees, but quite a few of my colleagues do run to work and to fetch lunch. I often jog to the offie or train station though.

[watwut]

> Quite a lot of people do exactly that.

Maybe, but overwhelming majority of people dont, whether before or post covid. Overwhelming majority of people walks to places and that includes people who like to jog.

Looking at past societies, people walked when getting to places, unless they were in usual hurry.

[dncornholio]

Because adults don't cycle for exercise, they cycle to get somewhere, preferably not being sweaty and out of breath.

[watwut]

It is exercise. Just not an intensive one. It is way more exercise then driving car.

[dukeyukey]

Sure, but when I'm cycling to work, my primary goal isn't exercise; it's to get to work. So I'm gonna do things that optimise for getting to work in a reasonable state, rather than optimising for exercise.

[paul_f]

Why do people walk when they could be jogging?

[lmm]

Hmm, it feels e-bikes over here (Tokyo) are most popular with the elderly (or cargo bikes doing deliveries) - young fit people ride faster than 25kph without assistance. Though a law-abiding culture and highly publicised cases of heavy fines for illegal models probably help.

[entropicgravity]

The solution here is speed limits on bike baths for both e and pedal bikes. And yes, monitored with speed guns. Where I live the competitive cyclists are (almost) never on the bike paths in any case, they do their workouts on minor roads with little traffic.

[WelcomeShorty]

> The solution here is speed limits on bike baths

He speaks about Amsterdam, there is no such thing as law enforcement there, specifically when it comes to bikes & mopeds. Whether it is about stealing or selling stolen bikes, speed limits or zebra crossings, cycling on sidewalks or against traffic, nothing stops anyone to do whatever they want.

Source: born and raised there.